Bone saddle on biscuit resonator?

[RJVB]

Hi,

Did anyone ever try a bone (or Tusq) nut on a biscuit resonator?

I'm finding the action on mine has decreased a bit, probably not so much due to cone collapse (it sees only a fraction of the tension it was designed for) but because the back of the guitar has bellied out just visibly. So at some point I'm probably going to have to replace the saddle (with or without the biscuit :-/). Annoyingly Fender no longer sell replacement parts for the Gretsch Roots series and I haven't yet found a suitable ebony-capped replacement blank so I have been wondering if and how the sound would change with a bone saddle. Would a bone saddle be heavier?

[Eldergreene]

A bone saddle will rob your guitar of its tone/volume - biscuit reso bridges should be either plain maple ( not ebony-capped ) or English boxwood ( like original Nationals ) for optimum results.

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by Eldergreene

A bone saddle will rob your guitar of its tone/volume - biscuit reso bridges should be either plain maple ( not ebony-capped ) or English boxwood ( like original Nationals ) for optimum results.

Good to know! I'll bet that applies to spiders and tricones, too.

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by Charlie Bernstein

Good to know! I'll bet that applies to spiders and tricones, too.

Yes......ish!

My Wechter/Sheerhorn spiderbridge squareneck has ebony topped saddles (maple bottoms) - and that seems to work nicely on that modern style dobro. But, traditionally, maple and boxwood were the go to for saddles and biscuits on all types of reso.

Rosewood works well for biscuits - with a maple saddle.

I have tried out a lot of different options (probably set-up somewhere around 800 reso guitars). The key to getting a good tone out of a biscuit bridge is simply to flatten the underside of the biscuit on sandpaper and get a nice clean contact with the top of the cone. Companies (and folks doing set-ups) will sometimes flatten the bottom of the biscuit before fitting the saddle into a slot in the biscuit. The biscuit then arches slightly as they bang in the saddle and the contact on the cone isn't clean. I have seen this a LOT with Far East reso guitars. Sand the biscuit flat and the instrument goes from "banjo" to "lush".

I can't tell you the number of folks who have upgraded the cone and biscuit on a Far East reso (quite an expensive mod) - when just sanding the biscuit they had, or fitting a $15 National maple biscuit/saddle would have achieved the same result!!!

In the OPs case - all bets are off......His single cone is strung with Nylgut strings. I have no idea how they will sound with a bone saddle.

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by RJVB

Hi,

Did anyone ever try a bone (or Tusq) nut on a biscuit resonator?

I'm finding the action on mine has decreased a bit, probably not so much due to cone collapse (it sees only a fraction of the tension it was designed for) but because the back of the guitar has bellied out just visibly. So at some point I'm probably going to have to replace the saddle (with or without the biscuit :-/). Annoyingly Fender no longer sell replacement parts for the Gretsch Roots series and I haven't yet found a suitable ebony-capped replacement blank so I have been wondering if and how the sound would change with a bone saddle. Would a bone saddle be heavier?

I actually have the very thing you're asking about, and here's some pictures of how I did it, etc.....'cause talk is cheap.....










Now.....here's what it sounds like, acoustically, played into an iPhone 6s with the built-in mic. Custom light gauge set tuned down to C'Vestapol, capo 2.



I hope this gives you enough information to make your own decision on whether or not to use an alternate material.

Best,
Howard Emerson

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

I hope this gives you enough information to make your own decision on whether or not to use an alternate material.

Thanks! But not really, TBH; not without a comparison of how this instrument sounds with this bone saddle ... cap. I suppose you made it to address compensation issues?

Gretsch justify their use of an ebony-capped saddle with the claim that it improves high frequency transmission, which I find very credible and is the reason I ordered a blank from them when I had my instrument converted. The overall sustain may be a bit shorter than what I'd get with a pure maple saddle but it's certainly long enough. The luthier who did that job had to make a new biscuit because the original assembly is glued together well enough that it wouldn't come apart without breakage. There was no banging involved (and he charged me his normal saddle replacement tariff).

I haven't had the cone out since but if memory serves me well the top of it isn't flat but somewhat concave; contact with the biscuit is around its perimeter and via a screw in the centre (the concavity must act like a kind of spring loading mechanism to pull the biscuit against the cone without having to tighten the screw too much?).

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by RJVB

Thanks! But not really, TBH; not without a comparison of how this instrument sounds with this bone saddle ... cap. I suppose you made it to address compensation issues?

Gretsch justify their use of an ebony-capped saddle with the claim that it improves high frequency transmission, which I find very credible and is the reason I ordered a blank from them when I had my instrument converted. The overall sustain may be a bit shorter than what I'd get with a pure maple saddle but it's certainly long enough. The luthier who did that job had to make a new biscuit because the original assembly is glued together well enough that it wouldn't come apart without breakage. There was no banging involved (and he charged me his normal saddle replacement tariff).

I haven't had the cone out since but if memory serves me well the top of it isn't flat but somewhat concave; contact with the biscuit is around its perimeter and via a screw in the centre (the concavity must act like a kind of spring loading mechanism to pull the biscuit against the cone without having to tighten the screw too much?).

I did it for several reasons.

First was to ditch the useless straight top saddle, which is worthless with a curved fingerboard. The bone is curved to the radius that gave me the best feel for my bottleneck (heavily radiused champagne bottle) and for my fingerstyle playing.

Secondly was to address intonation. And the stub I left is only for holding the bone in place.

The cap completely contacts the top of the biscuit, and it increased the sustain substantially, but that was just a pleasant surprise.

HE

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

Secondly was to address intonation. And the stub I left is only for holding the bone in place.

I guessed those. It reminded me a bit of when I got a facing after breaking a tooth

I don't know how usual this is, but the well in my resonator is sufficiently bigger than the cone that I can shift in addition to rotate the saddle to get almost spot-on intonation. (Easy to set too; just jack the strings up a bit with a pencil between them and the cover plate and voilà .)

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by RJVB

I guessed those. It reminded me a bit of when I got a facing after breaking a tooth

I don't know how usual this is, but the well in my resonator is sufficiently bigger than the cone that I can shift in addition to rotate the saddle to get almost spot-on intonation. (Easy to set too; just jack the strings up a bit with a pencil between them and the cover plate and voilà .)

I got my first lap style Dobro in 1970, and have had several since. Of course those all had spider style resonators, but they still could be rotated.

What I love about the 'newer' Nationals is that the bridge cover is removable, and it makes all work WAY easier than having to remove everything several times.

It also makes hand placement better for my tonal/tactile preferences.

Do I understand correctly that you have yours strung with nylon strings, or the like?

HE

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

Do I understand correctly that you have yours strung with nylon strings, or the like?

Yep. Aquila Rubino trebles to be exact ("nylgut" loaded with metal powder) which sit really nicely between regular nylon and "carbon" trebles. The sound remains recognisable as a wood-body biscuit resonator for people who're familiar with them, but also evokes the sound of lutes, early 19th C guitars and gut-strung banjos depending on who you ask. It still works for (non-bottleneck) blues as far as I'm concerned. Slide-playing isn't really something I'm interested in, but I did toy with the idea of turning this into a fretless instrument.

I also only put the bridge cover (hand rest) on for transportation because I like to be able to palm-mute on the saddle. Picked that up very early from a Mike Dowling video course but would probably have figured it out myself.

PS: The nylon conversion was something I planned from the outset; it's an idea I picked up on another forum based on what Chet Atkins apparently did with his DelVecchio (that may have been the bass strings only, can't remember). My idea was that it'd make the instrument more versatile, and it certainly did. I remember that the luthier was a bit sceptical when he accepted to do the initial mods but beaming with enthusiasm about the result when I came in to pick it up.