Seeking opinions re scale and fret number

[Dogma]

Originally Posted by IndianHillMike

Just to clear something up, the scale length will affect the tension but what fret the neck joins the body will not (and apologies if I'm interpreting what you wrote incorrectly!). In other words, a 12-fret short scale will have the same tension as a 14-fret short scale. When you're going with a short scale, the benefit of a 12-fret body joint is that it pushes the bridge away from the sound hole and deeper into the working area of the guitar. So, if comfort and is a primary concern, I'd for sure recommend a short scale 12-fret guitar (and probably a smaller body as well).

I have been pondering the smaller build for smaller body notion lately. Being small myself, I pursued two builds resulting in 00ish 14" guitars, in response to this notion. I also had a 000 13 built which has a wedge and is a bit more OM-like in proportion. Interestingly, I have a much easier time balancing the 000 in my lap, whether held neck up or horizontal. The slightly larger body size is easier for me to hold. I also have a GC which is a bit larger than the 000 (15.25" if I remember correctly) and it is on the cusp of too big. I don't know how I would have figured this out without having these guitars on hand to play over time.

I know two players who love smaller 00 guitars (both deep body models and I'm not sure where this fits into my theory, if at all) - one is my teacher Eric Skye, and the other is a friend. They are both tall guys with arm length. I am starting to wonder if this makes playing (or at least balancing) smaller guitars easier?

Just posing these thoughts with the summation that for little, old, me, the OM/ 000 size and style seems "just right."

[TBman]

Originally Posted by Merlemantel

I am contemplating a custom build. I am 67, female, short. Not much arthritis in my hands, but my neck can get wonky when I exert pressure to fret clean notes on the first and second frets. I am mostly a singer, have always played the guitar to accompany myself, but I am trying to learn finger style. I have a 14 fret, 25.5, 1.75 steel string (Heinonen) that has an absolutely gorgeous sound. I have a 25.5, 14 fret, 48 mm Lowden jazz guitar that I recently received, also a beautiful sound. Since receiving the Lowden, I have hardly picked up the Heinonen, which is a shame. That guitar SHOULD be played. I have tried low tension strings on the Heinonen, but it loses its extraordinary beauty with low tension strings, in my opinion. The action is exactly where it should be on that guitar. The Lowden is so much easier to play and it is allowing me to progress faster. So here's the deal, I am thinking about commissioning a steel string that will be more comfortable to play. So, do I go short scale - say 25 - 14 fret, for the lower tension? Do I go std scale, 12 fret, (not the Martin model where the reach stays pretty much equivalent to 14 fret, but more the Collings model, with a shorter reach to the first frets.)? Do I do both? (That seems like it could get a bit jangly and loosey-goosey to me) I like a resonant sound, more in the Celtic tradition, but not as overtone heavy as a Lowden steel string. I like a modern sound. I rarely play with a pick. I have a light touch. I do sometimes use dropped tunings, and would like to learn more of that rep. Your opinions, insights, will be greatly appreciated. This is a big move at 67, and I want to get it right. Thanks much. Leesa

I've thought about getting a short scale steel string again (I loved the feel of the J-45 I had), but then I put a capo on the 2nd fret and forget all about it.

BTW I haven't had my steel strings out of their cases in 2 weeks, just playing my nylons (including my new C12). When you have multiple guitars it's pretty much a normal thing to let some sit for a while and then re-discover them at some point.

[Guitars44me]

For me, Manzer type wedge! Bevels front and back.

25” scale, 12 fret cutaway. Action just under 5/64” E and 4/64” e at fret 12

As low as I can go on the nut slots. And 1.78” wide at the nut.

I prefer a slightly asymmetrical neck with the apex a bit closer to my thumb and a bit of a V with slightly less meat on the treble edge. Rolled fretboard edges. These specs allow me to fret thumb over even with my beat up old left hand…
John Kinnard has been dialing in my necks for several builds now, and they are very easy to play for extended periods. Helps a LOT when gigging!

Body size becomes somewhat irrelevant with the wedge and bevels.

I find my 16.25” lower bout Kinnaird more comfy than a standard 000 or OM.
Or even any smaller sizes, which is a testament to the wedge shape and bevels!

I hope you can play a ton of nice luthier built instruments and find what works for YOU!

Merry Christmas/Hanukkah/Kwanzaa/solstice/Festivus to all!

Paul

[SiliconValleySJ]

Originally Posted by Merlemantel

Good question. No, the Heinonen came with Drew's std setup. I should have my local luthier take a look at it. Excellent point.

I'd highly encourage you to do this. I have a Heinonen and the action was set higher than my other fingerstyle at the time (a Maingard). I had a good tech bring down the action and actually plek it too. It's much more comfortable to play now. Drew sets his standard action a bit higher to incorporate both strumming and fingerstyle, or at least, he did with mine.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by Merlemantel

I am contemplating a custom build. I am 67, female, short. Not much arthritis in my hands, but my neck can get wonky when I exert pressure to fret clean notes on the first and second frets. I am mostly a singer, have always played the guitar to accompany myself, but I am trying to learn finger style. I have a 14 fret, 25.5, 1.75 steel string (Heinonen) that has an absolutely gorgeous sound. I have a 25.5, 14 fret, 48 mm Lowden jazz guitar that I recently received, also a beautiful sound. Since receiving the Lowden, I have hardly picked up the Heinonen, which is a shame. That guitar SHOULD be played. I have tried low tension strings on the Heinonen, but it loses its extraordinary beauty with low tension strings, in my opinion. The action is exactly where it should be on that guitar. The Lowden is so much easier to play and it is allowing me to progress faster. So here's the deal, I am thinking about commissioning a steel string that will be more comfortable to play. So, do I go short scale - say 25 - 14 fret, for the lower tension? Do I go std scale, 12 fret, (not the Martin model where the reach stays pretty much equivalent to 14 fret, but more the Collings model, with a shorter reach to the first frets.)? Do I do both? (That seems like it could get a bit jangly and loosey-goosey to me) I like a resonant sound, more in the Celtic tradition, but not as overtone heavy as a Lowden steel string. I like a modern sound. I rarely play with a pick. I have a light touch. I do sometimes use dropped tunings, and would like to learn more of that rep. Your opinions, insights, will be greatly appreciated. This is a big move at 67, and I want to get it right. Thanks much. Leesa

With much the same questions I built a 24-3/4" scale length size 00 all mahogany. Do consider the smaller body when you do the check list of what you want.

Here's mine, including a complete CAD plan if it's any help.

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=579732

I LOVE this guitar!

[Merlemantel]

Originally Posted by TBman

I've thought about getting a short scale steel string again (I loved the feel of the J-45 I had), but then I put a capo on the 2nd fret and forget all about it.

BTW I haven't had my steel strings out of their cases in 2 weeks, just playing my nylons (including my new C12). When you have multiple guitars it's pretty much a normal thing to let some sit for a while and then re-discover them at some point.

I get it Barry, but my Heinonen is sitting because it is ergonomically not a great fit. For the typical guy, it would be great. It is not good for me. I can play it with a capo on it - ? But I prefer to play things in the original key if I can.

[Merlemantel]

Originally Posted by SiliconValleySJ

I'd highly encourage you to do this. I have a Heinonen and the action was set higher than my other fingerstyle at the time (a Maingard). I had a good tech bring down the action and actually plek it too. It's much more comfortable to play now. Drew sets his standard action a bit higher to incorporate both strumming and fingerstyle, or at least, he did with mine.

Thanks. I will look into this.

[s2y]

Originally Posted by Merlemantel

I get it Barry, but my Heinonen is sitting because it is ergonomically not a great fit. For the typical guy, it would be great. It is not good for me. I can play it with a capo on it - ? But I prefer to play things in the original key if I can.

Why?

Do you play left or right knee?

[Merlemantel]

Originally Posted by s2y

Why?

Do you play left or right knee?

It is a reach issue for me. Short arms.

I use a strap when I pay, with the headstock end tilted up, right hand dominant

[sinistral]

Before ordering a custom guitar, I would try to sample a bunch of stock or already built guitars to try to find something in the ballpark. Martin 12-fret designs tend to have similar reach as their 14-fret counterparts, since the bridge moves very little and the upper bout is elongated. On Gibsons and guitars that follow the Gibson approach (e.g., Taylor, etc.), the bridge and neck are shifted back by 2 frets, to the reach is approximately an inch shorter. If you couple that with a short scale, the reach gets a bit closer still, and the frets are a little closer together.

Not sure what shops are near you, but I would go to as many as I can. I would also suggest going to a guitar show or two (Artisan, Fretboard Summit, La Conner and maybe Woodstock(?) if we’re lucky). Guitar shows are great because there are usually a fair number of guitars like what you are searching for, plus you get to meet and speak with luthiers in person.

[s2y]

Originally Posted by Merlemantel

It is a reach issue for me. Short arms.

I use a strap when I pay, with the headstock end tilted up, right hand dominant

You'd have to post a photo. Are you following the same classical lines while standing?

[Merlemantel]

Originally Posted by sinistral

Before ordering a custom guitar, I would try to sample a bunch of stock or already built guitars to try to find something in the ballpark. Martin 12-fret designs tend to have similar reach as their 14-fret counterparts, since the bridge moves very little and the upper bout is elongated. On Gibsons and guitars that follow the Gibson approach (e.g., Taylor, etc.), the bridge and neck are shifted back by 2 frets, to the reach is approximately an inch shorter. If you couple that with a short scale, the reach gets a bit closer still, and the frets are a little closer together.

Not sure what shops are near you, but I would go to as many as I can. I would also suggest going to a guitar show or two (Artisan, Fretboard Summit, La Conner and maybe Woodstock(?) if we’re lucky). Guitar shows are great because there are usually a fair number of guitars like what you are searching for, plus you get to meet and speak with luthiers in person.

I have owned 3 Taylors, one Collings (a 12-fret) a Lowden, two classical, and a Heinonen. I already have a pretty good sense of what is going on. And, the only thing in my neck of the woods is a Guitar Center. Lastly, I want a custom build, the question is, how to configure it. The discussion is helping me narrow it down.

[Racerbob]

Before spending a bunch on a custom it actually is cost effective to visit a builder or two at their shops and play examples along with discussing exactly what you want/need. Good builders can do amazing things when they know what it is you are looking for that you would never have thought about.

[Merlemantel]

Originally Posted by s2y

You'd have to post a photo. Are you following the same classical lines while standing?

I rarely play standing. I use a strap even when sitting. To keep it from rolling off my old lady belly. LOL

[Merlemantel]

Originally Posted by Racerbob

Before spending a bunch on a custom it actually is cost effective to visit a builder or two at their shops and play examples along with discussing exactly what you want/need. Good builders can do amazing things when they know what it is you are looking for that you would never have thought about.

Looking at your guitars, I would say you know your stuff!!!