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  #16  
Old 01-14-2019, 08:02 PM
Durnbock Durnbock is offline
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Another vote here for the EV ZLX12. I have a pair of the ZLX15 speakers that I use now and then when I don't want to use my regular setup with a sub. They sound very nice. They are't going to get super loud, but for a patio of 50 people they should be plenty. And if you ever upgrade to better/more powerful speakers, they make great monitors.

I have a Soundcraft EFX 12 mixer and really like it, very nice effects. I haven't used the Notebook line from Soundcraft but they do ake sweet mixers.

My guitars all have built-in pickups so I can't help much with microphones suggestions!
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  #17  
Old 01-14-2019, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Durnbock View Post
Another vote here for the EV ZLX12. I have a pair of the ZLX15 speakers that I use now and then when I don't want to use my regular setup with a sub. They sound very nice. They are't going to get super loud, but for a patio of 50 people they should be plenty. And if you ever upgrade to better/more powerful speakers, they make great monitors.

I have a Soundcraft EFX 12 mixer and really like it, very nice effects. I haven't used the Notebook line from Soundcraft but they do ake sweet mixers.

My guitars all have built-in pickups so I can't help much with microphones suggestions!

Thank you, it is nice to hear from you in that you have experience with the EVs. It is going to be mostly acoustic fingerstyle playing so I don't think I really need too much volume, it is not like I am trying to DJ a wedding LOL! That mixer looks nice, but outside of my budget I am afraid.

Thanks again.
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  #18  
Old 01-14-2019, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Wistah View Post
Yes, I've heard the ZLX and they are my favorite budget speaker. They sound better to my ears than the comparable JBL (Eon) and Mackie (Thump) offerings. I almost bought a pair for my acoustic band gigs, but decided on the ELX line for times when I might need more oomph. I use the prior generation Alto TS210s as floor monitors.

I've not played with the MXL440/441. I've used the MXL990/991 extensively. I don't like those for live performance, especially outside. Bright and sibilant, not my favorite on voices. Make sure you get some kind of wind sock to mitigate blowing wind noise through the mics. And good luck!
Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Chriscom View Post
As for mics, you can go with an SM58 on voice and an SM57 on the instrument. Cheap and reliable. No need for condenser mics. You will be outdoors, wind noise, ambient sounds, etc. I think you want dynamic for those reasons.

Yeah, I'm not familiar with many of the other mics mentioned here, and I'm sure they're great, but for the money (and even just period), these Shure mics are terrific. There are endless discussions about condenser v. dynamic but for a live performance the vast majority of sound guys in most common settings are gonna go with dynamic for a reason. I've used them both for live and recording, very happily. These particular dynamics also have the advantage of being something just about anyone who has performed a lot is familiar with. While not everyone's favorite they're widely respected.

I have the Yamaha MX10XU and if it fits your budget, you can't go wrong with it. I love mine.

Good luck with the event, that's great!
Thank you for the mic info and the thumbs up on the MX10XU. Seems like that is the one to go for with my budget!
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  #19  
Old 01-14-2019, 09:50 PM
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I thank everyone for their help so far. Based on the info you gave me and then researching prices etc. this is what I have so far:

Electro-voice ZLX12P speakers times 2
Yamaha MG10XU mixer
A couple of boom mic stands
2 speaker stands.

Price for all new: 1108.00

I think based on what you have said and online reviews, these are all great products and quality stuff with as low as I can probably expect to be realistically and have a great sounding yet simple system. I still need to get cables for the speakers to the mixer, but it was not quite clear what I needed, so I will probably go into the store and pick those up directly.

I decided that I would ask the performers to bring their own mics and mic cables along. That way I am not trying to please 6 different folks which is how many are playing. The mics should be easily packed. I know one has already told me he really loves his EV 767 mics which did not even come up in this thead, so that made me think they will all have their faves and can just bring those along.

I did not buy anything yet, but wanted to post this so everyone who cares to can still make suggestions etc.

And remember, I still have some slots open if anyone wants to come. I really want this to be successful. Lots of great guitars and seminars and workshops at a great time of year to be in Texas!!! Just sayin!

Thanks, Tom
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  #20  
Old 01-15-2019, 07:47 AM
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One last bit of advice. Don't cheap out on the mic stands, especially if you are planning on using heavy large diaphragm condenser mics. They simply won't hold the weight.

I recommend K&M stands, or DR Pro stands. These have enough ballast weight to 1) last a long time and 2) support a heavy microphone.
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  #21  
Old 01-15-2019, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB'sox View Post

I decided that I would ask the performers to bring their own mics and mic cables along. That way I am not trying to please 6 different folks which is how many are playing. The mics should be easily packed. I know one has already told me he really loves his EV 767 mics which did not even come up in this thead, so that made me think they will all have their faves and can just bring those along.
Realize that all the mics will have different output and tonal characteristics and you'll need tweaking between each performer if you go that route. Logistically, it would be much simpler to have the system all set up for the room, and be all set to go for each performer. Just a thought.
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  #22  
Old 01-15-2019, 10:20 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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I've heard that they've used a Shure SM57 mic for the Winfield contests, so it obviously can work well enough. I've recently been studying the SM57 frequency response charts, however, and it surprised me to find that with close miking, the strongest proximity response of the mic is at 200 Hz. 200 Hz is a pretty boomy frequency for guitar, so the typical soundman's response (including my own) is to roll-off the bass end at the mixer. The downside of that is that you must roll off a great deal of the deep bass to get 200 Hz down to an optimum level.

Here are some frequency response charts for the SM57, including one that shows the proximity effect at 1" away and 2" away.

https://www.google.com/search?q=SM57...w=1003&bih=644

On the other hand, if you're miking from a greater distance away, the SM57's frequency response will still be much stronger at 200 Hz than 98 Hz (low G on a guitar in standard tuning at concert pitch) or 82.4 Hz (low E on a guitar in standard tuning at concert pitch).

It seems to me that the suggestion for using a Shure SM81 will serve you better. The mic can be set for a relatively flat bass response, and if you need to roll off some proximity effect because of close miking, rolling off the bass at the mixer will give you a more even bass roll-off than you'll get with the SM57. The one caveat is that your mixer must have phantom power to use the Shure SM81. Most mixers have it.


A parametric EQ could help you get a flatter response for the SM57, but I doubt that you'll want to get into that particular patch of weeds.
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  #23  
Old 01-15-2019, 11:42 AM
The Kid! The Kid! is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB'sox View Post

Electro-voice ZLX12P speakers times 2
Yamaha MG10XU mixer
A couple of boom mic stands
2 speaker stands.

I still need to get cables for the speakers to the mixer, but it was not quite clear what I needed, so I will probably go into the store and pick those up directly.

I decided that I would ask the performers to bring their own mics and mic cables along. That way I am not trying to please 6 different folks which is how many are playing.
I would strongly urge you to hire a competent sound person to bring mics, PA, and to be there to mix. Especially since you are buying gear that you are not familiar with and don't know which cables you need to hook the mixer to the speakers! (The answer is male to female XLR cables)

Not trying to be a jerk, I just see the possibility of a catastrophe.

That mixer is decent, but you're way better off using one with mid sweeps. I'd bet that at least a couple of the performers might be able to help you set up and even mix, but having a pro there with a decent PA and monitors would be the way to go.

You could always save up for a PA, learn how to run it, and then do your own sound next year.
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  #24  
Old 01-15-2019, 12:43 PM
gfa gfa is offline
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Originally Posted by The Kid! View Post
I would strongly urge you to hire a competent sound person to bring mics, PA, and to be there to mix. Especially since you are buying gear that you are not familiar with and don't know which cables you need to hook the mixer to the speakers! (The answer is male to female XLR cables)

Not trying to be a jerk, I just see the possibility of a catastrophe.

That mixer is decent, but you're way better off using one with mid sweeps. I'd bet that at least a couple of the performers might be able to help you set up and even mix, but having a pro there with a decent PA and monitors would be the way to go.

You could always save up for a PA, learn how to run it, and then do your own sound next year.
I think this is good advice. One of your (OP) earlier posts said you foresee this being an annual event, so you want to go ahead and invest in the PA now. That's prudent, but maybe it makes more sense to go through the event once with a hired PA and sound person, after which you'll have a better idea about the whole thing. Alternatively, find a local sound person to consult on your equipment purchase and perhaps help you out on the day of the event. There are so many options & choices, and it's easy for a newbie to buy stuff that isn't right for the task, which ends up being more expensive in the long run. Ask me how I know ...

Good luck, have fun!
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  #25  
Old 01-15-2019, 01:19 PM
YamahaGuy YamahaGuy is offline
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Between now and March, you have time to grow accustomed to running the equipment. Practice with it just like with using your instrument. There is a learning curve. You'll be fine. As for the mic issue, it is early enough, I'd poll the scheduled performers and see what they prefer.
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  #26  
Old 01-15-2019, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by YamahaGuy View Post
Between now and March, you have time to grow accustomed to running the equipment. Practice with it just like with using your instrument. There is a learning curve. You'll be fine. As for the mic issue, it is early enough, I'd poll the scheduled performers and see what they prefer.

Thank you, I did not plan to sound like an idiot. I have done sound before, played in a band for 15 years, it has just been a while and equipment has indeed changed a lot. I have asked everyone what mics they prefer as well. I am pretty much going to use the Shure 57s for instruments and 58s for voice. One has EV mics he likes so he will use those. He will be performing first so will have all the time he needs to dial in the sound he likes. There is a break of 30 minutes to an hour between performances so again, any fine tuning can easily be done then.

By not buying the cables on line, I just meant I wanted to go into guitar center and physically see what was available in terms of quality not just buying what came up on the website. But, thanks, for advise. By the way, none of the performers want to use monitors. This is going to be an acoustic event.

I terms of the suggestions to hire a PA and sound guy...most of the players are full time players and or professional musicians and they have all offered to help with the sound system set up and getting it dialed in.

This is an event that my wife and I have been working very hard on and involves a lot of stuff from housing, hotels, food, drinks, coordinating flights etc. I asked for advise on a system to help me along the way and I thank all of you who have offered advise. From what I have learned, the mixers and mics and speakers are so good these days, I have a feeling between myself and the performers, we will be fine. Since this is a gathering of guitar friends, I am sure no one will start to throw tomatoes if I have too much mid dialed in.

BTW, I ended up with a Allen and Heath AED-10FX mixer today instead of the Yamaha from a fellow AGF member.
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  #27  
Old 01-15-2019, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by gfa View Post
I think this is good advice. One of your (OP) earlier posts said you foresee this being an annual event, so you want to go ahead and invest in the PA now. That's prudent, but maybe it makes more sense to go through the event once with a hired PA and sound person, after which you'll have a better idea about the whole thing. Alternatively, find a local sound person to consult on your equipment purchase and perhaps help you out on the day of the event. There are so many options & choices, and it's easy for a newbie to buy stuff that isn't right for the task, which ends up being more expensive in the long run. Ask me how I know ...

Good luck, have fun!
I have not just been doing this on my own. I have asked for advise on equipment from you guys, have done a lot of online research and have consulted with the professional musicians who will be playing on what equipment I am looking at and getting their opinions as well. I am not reporting all of what I have done on this thread. So I am confident it will all be great. I am not on my own here and again appreciate the advise I have been given.
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  #28  
Old 01-15-2019, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by The Kid! View Post
I would strongly urge you to hire a competent sound person to bring mics, PA, and to be there to mix. Especially since you are buying gear that you are not familiar with and don't know which cables you need to hook the mixer to the speakers! (The answer is male to female XLR cables)

Not trying to be a jerk, I just see the possibility of a catastrophe.

That mixer is decent, but you're way better off using one with mid sweeps. I'd bet that at least a couple of the performers might be able to help you set up and even mix, but having a pro there with a decent PA and monitors would be the way to go.

You could always save up for a PA, learn how to run it, and then do your own sound next year.
Thanks for your opinion. I am trying to mic up some acoustic guitars and run them through some decent speakers so 50 people can enjoy the music. I am not trying to record the Philharmonic orchestra in Carnegie Hall. I don't really think this goal requires me to hire a professional. I meant to imply that I wanted to go into the store to see what cables were available and at the same time I thought I would physically check out the speakers I am thinking of buying. Sorry if you thought that meant I know nothing. I think with 2 months of playing with the mixer and the help of the musicians coming, I will have "learn how to run it" by then.
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  #29  
Old 01-15-2019, 06:34 PM
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Thanks for your opinion. I am trying to mic up some acoustic guitars and run them through some decent speakers so 50 people can enjoy the music. I am not trying to record the Philharmonic orchestra in Carnegie Hall.
I gathered that already.

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Originally Posted by TomB'sox View Post
I meant to imply that I wanted to go into the store to see what cables were available and at the same time I thought I would physically check out the speakers I am thinking of buying.
That's not what the OP sounded like to me, but if you've got it, then you're good

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Originally Posted by TomB'sox View Post
Sorry if you thought that meant I know nothing.
Not what I said or even thought. It sounded like you were unfamiliar with how to even hook it all up from the post.

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Originally Posted by TomB'sox View Post
I think with 2 months of playing with the mixer and the help of the musicians coming, I will have "learn how to run it" by then.
Should be plenty of time.

I'll add that I should have written that hiring a pro would have been way under your budget and hopefully they'd come with some great mics and mic'ing techniques.

If you can handle it with what you have, then you're good. Hope you have a great event!

Last edited by The Kid!; 01-15-2019 at 09:50 PM.
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  #30  
Old 01-15-2019, 10:07 PM
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Default Help with sound system please

I wish your event were happening out my way... I'd be happy to loan you a system for the day! Hopefully you'll find enough supportive musicians in the area that you might not need to buy or rent anything this time around. If you do buy something, try to aim for quality gear for the long term. Better to spend a little more one time for something good than the alternative.

MIXER
Congrats on scoring the Allen Heath mixer. It's clean sounding, simple to operate, and has swept mids. The digital effects are decent, though a dedicated outboard effects processor is noticably better than what is included in most compact mixers. If a guitar player's sound requires sophisticated effects, they'll probably bring their own preferred effects units with them.

STANDS
I second the vote for K & K mic stands. Absolutely worth it long term and a joy to use. Please do NOT go for the cheap ON STAGE mic stands and speaker stands. They're bordeline when new and only get worse with time.

SPEAKERS
All of the speakers mentioned will have plenty of volume for this small of an event, with the possible exception of the Bose. But the claimed number of watts and dB and marketing hype specs don't begin to tell the whole story on sound quality. Same way an entry level Recording King guitar might have similar "specs" to a vintage Martin or custom Froggy Bottom guitar, but they sure don't sound the same! If you're willing to invest in long term main speakers, another one to consider is the RCF HD 32-A MK4. It's an exceptional speaker in its price range for acoustic music. The compression driver on this is unlike anything else in its class. If going more budget, might consider the RCF HD10-A MK4 or ART 710-A MK4.

While you usually see a speaker on each side of a performer, I agree with the poster who said for this event, you might do fine with a single speaker, placed a bit behind the performer and up high, maybe around 10 feet up and angled downward at the audience. Most speakers send out their most balanced sound in a "wedge" shape, often about 60 degrees vertical and 90 degrees horizontal. Outside that wedge, the sound is more muffled. So depending on the seating arrangement, and distance to the speaker, you might get fine coverage with just one speaker. Assuming it's a solo performer, at moderate volume, and you're running things in mono.

MICS & WINDSCREENS
As for microphones, the list is long. The already mentioned Shure SM-57 (and Beta 57-A) can sound quite good. Moving up to a condensor, an Audio-Technica Artist Elite AE5100 sounds wonderful on acoustic guitar. Careful placement (and judicious EQ) counts for a lot. Different guitars have different sweet spots. Experiment during a sound check if possible. 6 inches away from where the neck joins the body is a good starting place for a single mic. Try not to aim a mic at the sound hole. Use duct tape when necessary to keep moving guitar players in place.

Proper fitting windscreens are vital for outdoor use. Mics pick up even a slight breeze (and amplify the heck out of it). In my experience, some of the thicker proprietary microphone windscreens are worth the premium price over generic covers.

Good Luck with the event! If you want to chat about more ideas, PM me with your phone.
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