Schatten HFN (New Design)

[GuitarLuva]

Originally Posted by Marshall

You're right, except I CARE what I sound like. It makes me feel good about what I'm doing when I hear a sound coming back in the monitors that sounds like I want to sound.

And when I hear somebody else's harsh quackie sound coming out of the sound system, I cringe.

Absolutely, I totally agree with you on this. I certainly care what I sound like even if nobody else does.

[GuitarLuva]

Well the Schatten HFN was waiting for me when I got home from work yesterday. Unfortunately I won't get a chance to try it until the weekend when I'm off. I was hoping to get it sooner so now the next few days are going to be painful as I'm really anxious to try it.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by GuitarLuva

Well the Schatten HFN was waiting for me when I got home from work yesterday. Unfortunately I won't get a chance to try it until the weekend when I'm off. I was hoping to get it sooner so now the next few days are going to be painful as I'm really anxious to try it.

Definitely let us know what you think! I am thinking more and more that I just missed the wave of new HFN pickups and have the older model. I want to rip it out and try an install with even less putty. I think I used too much which resulted in some string balance issues.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

Definitely let us know what you think! I am thinking more and more that I just missed the wave of new HFN pickups and have the older model. I want to rip it out and try an install with even less putty. I think I used too much which resulted in some string balance issues.

Scott, be the first to superglue your Schatten! I'm thinking of supergluing my Trance Amulet M Phantom in my Martin D-18 but will try holding a bare Amulet against the soundboard first to hear if there are any strange noises. Then, again, we could always try the Teddy Randazzo method of using epoxy which may be an easier fix than superglue when trying to remove and relocate, if necessary, the pickup(s).

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

Scott, be the first to superglue your Schatten! I'm thinking of supergluing my Trance Amulet M Phantom in my Martin D-18 but will try holding a bare Amulet against the soundboard first to hear if there are any strange noises. Then, again, we could always try the Teddy Randazzo method of using epoxy which may be an easier fix than superglue when trying to remove and relocate, if necessary, the pickup(s).

FWIW, I superglued an iBeam into my old D28 and its the best sounding iBeam installation of the three that I've done. Its definitely less boomy and less feedback prone than the tape installations. The downside, of course, is that it would be a major project to remove (even with Bondini super glue remover, I suspect).

[GuitarLuva]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

FWIW, I superglued an iBeam into my old D28 and its the best sounding iBeam installation of the three that I've done. Its definitely less boomy and less feedback prone than the tape installations. The downside, of course, is that it would be a major project to remove (even with Bondini super glue remover, I suspect).

Thanks for sharing. I will be using Loctite 495 (my glue of choice). I have used this stuff on practically everything over the years and I absolutely love it. It's transparent, super strong and bonds fast. Also way easier to clean up than superglue if you had to remove it.

[Marshall]

You guys are braver than me. I'd never superglue anything in there. I prefer the putty installation. And I don't think it matters how much putty you use. When you squeeze the pickup to the soundboard with STRONG hand pressure, the excess oozes out and sits next to the pickup. Doesn't hurt anything. And I figure I'm getting the full foot contact then.

[Marshall]

Years ago I was a PUTW #27 fan. Still loved the pickup when it worked properly. But the sticky tape would eventually come a little loose at the cable end. And then the thing would start distorting. I'd have to take off the strings and redo the installation. Impossible when you're playing a gig and the thing craps out.

I did eventually put a dab of superglue at the end where the cable attached to the pickup. That worked nice. I sold that guitar a year later. i tested the pickup at the time of sale and it was working nicely. So, I suppose there's something to that gluing thing.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Marshall

Years ago I was a PUTW #27 fan. Still loved the pickup when it worked properly. But the sticky tape would eventually come a little loose at the cable end. And then the thing would start distorting. I'd have to take off the strings and redo the installation. Impossible when you're playing a gig and the thing craps out.

I did eventually put a dab of superglue at the end where the cable attached to the pickup. That worked nice. I sold that guitar a year later. i tested the pickup at the time of sale and it was working nicely. So, I suppose there's something to that gluing thing.

That was my biggest frustration with my PUTW #54 installation. It would de-adhere from the bridge plate. I never felt that sold on it for my application to glue it in permanently.

Otherwise, it was basically microphonic in tone and sounded alive and wonderful. It also was very susceptible to feedback.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

Scott, be the first to superglue your Schatten! I'm thinking of supergluing my Trance Amulet M Phantom in my Martin D-18 but will try holding a bare Amulet against the soundboard first to hear if there are any strange noises. Then, again, we could always try the Teddy Randazzo method of using epoxy which may be an easier fix than superglue when trying to remove and relocate, if necessary, the pickup(s).

Haha if I had a cheaper guitar, I would totally experiment. One thing I am going to try is installing the HFN with the red tape that comes with the Amulet. Mind you, the tape Schatten sends is insanely thin as well but it's worth a try. I like the putty as it's easy to move but it's harder to get a nice balanced tone.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by Marshall

You guys are braver than me. I'd never superglue anything in there. I prefer the putty installation. And I don't think it matters how much putty you use. When you squeeze the pickup to the soundboard with STRONG hand pressure, the excess oozes out and sits next to the pickup. Doesn't hurt anything. And I figure I'm getting the full foot contact then.

The only downside as I mentioned above is that with the putty, my low E was much quieter than the other strings. I went in and pushed harder on it and the balance was great but the tone became much brighter. If I remember correctly, Schatten recommends the tape method for brighter guitars as it's a bit more balanced tonally.

[GuitarLuva]

Originally Posted by Marshall

You guys are braver than me. I'd never superglue anything in there. I prefer the putty installation. And I don't think it matters how much putty you use. When you squeeze the pickup to the soundboard with STRONG hand pressure, the excess oozes out and sits next to the pickup. Doesn't hurt anything. And I figure I'm getting the full foot contact then.

I'm not planning to use super glue. I'll be using loctite 495 if I choose to glue it.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

Haha if I had a cheaper guitar, I would totally experiment. One thing I am going to try is installing the HFN with the red tape that comes with the Amulet. Mind you, the tape Schatten sends is insanely thin as well but it's worth a try. I like the putty as it's easy to move but it's harder to get a nice balanced tone.

Another thing to consider, regardless of whatever mounting medium you use, is to make sure all three feet of your Schatten are making equal contact with the tape/bridgeplate interface and one or more of the of the feet isn't lifting slightly and thus not getting as much vibration through it to the pickup. This may mean sanding one or more of your Schatten's feet to make sure that all three make and remain in good contact with the tape/bridgeplate interface. Just follow the Schatten instructions.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

Scott, be the first to superglue your Schatten! I'm thinking of supergluing my Trance Amulet M Phantom in my Martin D-18 but will try holding a bare Amulet against the soundboard first to hear if there are any strange noises. Then, again, we could always try the Teddy Randazzo method of using epoxy which may be an easier fix than superglue when trying to remove and relocate, if necessary, the pickup(s).

I would check with Gary Hull at Trance before trying superglue with the Trance pickups. The approach for a decade or 2 before the tape was available was Barge cement. I've tried both, and hear no difference - the tape works as well as the glue. Superglue, however, is like Kryptonite to Trance pickups :-) as far as I can tell.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I would check with Gary Hull at Trance before trying superglue with the Trance pickups. The approach for a decade or 2 before the tape was available was Barge cement. I've tried both, and hear no difference - the tape works as well as the glue. Superglue, however, is like Kryptonite to Trance pickups :-) as far as I can tell.

Thanks, Doug. Gary Hull also raised concerns when I asked him about mounting the Trance Amulet's transducers with superglue. He said something like you'll get too much treble-frequency noise. I think he also mentioned I'd ruin the pickup.

My main concern with using superglue with the Trance pickups is that it may separate the Amulet's bottom epoxy-surface from the plastic housing. My installation would be using a single moderate-sized drop of superglue quickly spread evenly around the epoxy surface and then pressed and held against the bridgeplate for a minute or so. This worked very well with the old Shadow metallic single-disk piezo systems that I installed back in the late 1970s and early 1980s. For an Amulet, superglue would likely be a one-time only installation as the pickup may come apart if trying to remove it.

Another alternative, for experimental purposes, would be to try using Elmer's mucilage glue (the stuff we used with the rubber applicator-tip when we were kids) and clamp the pickup in place overnight. This would provide a very thin mount and likely be removable but may not hold well for a permanent installation.

The only reason I want to try an alternative adhesive medium for mounting the Trance Amulet pickups is that even with the .009 inch thick tape, I firmly believe that the pickup's vibrational transference of bass and overall signal strength is being compromised. Intimate pickup contact with the bridgeplate is why K&K systems have so much bass and in-your-face presence and signal strength. Back in the 1970s, every pickup maker supplied either putty or beeswax with their systems and they all sounded pretty tinny. I forget what prompted me to try superglue on a Shadow system installation in a Martin HD-28, around 1979, but when I did it was like night and day compared to the Shadow system's supplied putty.