Melodyne for acoustic guitar?

[b1j]

During the last price promotion I upgraded my Melodyne version to Editor, the second-highest level, which boasts editing of polyphonic instruments.

The other day I recorded a strum/picking track of a new song, planning to add the vocal in the week ahead. While mixing I noticed that the guitar was a little out of tune on some of the thirds, and I had already struck the set, so there was no going back to retrack. So I wondered if Melodyne might be able to help. Sure enough, once it loads onto the track, you can see blobs (notes) for every note.

I did the gross adjustment: highlighted every note of the song and double clicked to adjust the pitch to 0 cents, for all the notes at once. Ever since then there has been this strange phasing sound on the track. I recovered my original track and plan to use that one, but The experience made me wonder if Melodyne can actually deliver as advertised –– adjusting individual notes.

I suspect the phasing might have something to do with overtones that get pitch-adjusted slightly differently from their fundamentals. There, I've strayed well beyond my knowledge.

Anyone use Melodyne? Have you tried the Editor version to pitch-adjust acoustic guitar? Obviously the best plan is to tune the guitar.

[Doug Young]

I have melodyne and use it, but you have to be very careful with solo guitar. It works great on single-note stuff, and I've used it heavily on vocals, violins, etc. It's astonishing that it can work on polyphonic instruments, but you do get that phasing sound most of the time. I've used it on fingerstyle guitar, BUT:

Primarily in a mix with other instruments so the phasing isn't noticeable, and,

I'm very selective about what I correct. For example, I might think I've bent a low G out of tune in one spot. I select *just* that note and correct it. Or maybe the tail of the song seem to drift out of tune. I'll select just the final chord and tune that.

Selecting the entire track and tuning everything almost never works for me.

[lkingston]

I’ve switched all my editing to the iPad. Melodyne is the only thing I really miss.

[b1j]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I have melodyne and use it, but you have to be very careful with solo guitar. It works great on single-note stuff, and I've used it heavily on vocals, violins, etc. It's astonishing that it can work on polyphonic instruments, but you do get that phasing sound most of the time. I've used it on fingerstyle guitar, BUT:

Primarily in a mix with other instruments so the phasing isn't noticeable, and,

I'm very selective about what I correct. For example, I might think I've bent a low G out of tune in one spot. I select *just* that note and correct it. Or maybe the tail of the song seem to drift out of tune. I'll select just the final chord and tune that.

Selecting the entire track and tuning everything almost never works for me.

That makes sense. I felt a little uneasy as I jammed every audible signal to zero cents.

I agree, it’s remarkable that Melodyne gives you every note to work with. Probably a lighter touch would be better. Maybe I’ll duplicate the raw track and experiment with one note at a time. After all, the guitar was almost completely in tune.

[b1j]

Originally Posted by lkingston

I’ve switched all my editing to the iPad. Melodyne is the only thing I really miss.

There must be plenty of simplifying advantages to using an iPad, I guess. I’m not familiar, though. Your DAW works on iOS, but not Melodyne?

[b1j]

I went back and zeroed in on one note at a time. Aha. That’s what this tool is for. Lesson learned.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by b1j

I went back and zeroed in on one note at a time. Aha. That’s what this tool is for. Lesson learned.

Well, technically, it works the way you were trying to use it, and it's quite astonishing. Just for fun, go in and change some chords from major to minor. it works! It's just that with acoustic guitar, if the part is exposed, anything more than the most minor correction damages the sound enough that we can hear it.

Guitar is very sensitive to things like this as well as other processing (like compression), probably more than other polyphonic sources like piano - tho maybe I'm just tuned into minute changes to guitar more than piano. Melodyne is basically a miracle :-)

The nice thing is that the tool is flexible enough that you can choose how to use it and have some control over the balance between pitch corrections vs artifacts.

[Doug Young]

BTW, while you're playing with melodyne, note that it can do a lot more than pitch correction. You can shift the timing, both start and length, of notes, for example. Even individual notes in a chord. So for example, if you came in early on a chord, just grab the notes and pull them right. Or if you accidently let up on the bass note, and it died out too early, just grab that note and drag it out longer. You can add or remove vibrato. Crazy stuff

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by b1j

I went back and zeroed in on one note at a time. Aha. That’s what this tool is for. Lesson learned.

That's the case in general for lots of post-processing, especially for "fixing mistakes" kind of stuff (pitch/timing correction, removing squeaks or clicks, de-essing, etc.). You can just apply a general setting and it's pretty amazing what it does, but you'll usually get better results by going in and manually fixing each spot that really needs it. Tedious at times, but often worth it.

[lkingston]

Originally Posted by b1j

There must be plenty of simplifying advantages to using an iPad, I guess. I’m not familiar, though. Your DAW works on iOS, but not Melodyne?

Yes, I have found really great apps for editing audio and video to the degree that I need them at least:

Video editor (plus AUV3 audio plugins): Luma Fusion. This app is a fantastic NLE. I can also add AUV3 effects like compression and reverb, though some AUV3 plugins do not work yet.

DAW: Cubasis 3.0 and Auria Pro. Auria Pro got off to a fantastic start but hasn’t been properly updated lately, so I don’t know about it’s future. Cubasis 3.0 has limits, but they are easy to work around. I wouldn’t use it for a complex project, but my stuff isn’t that complex, at least not layer and DSP-wise.

Audio only: Ferrite Recording Studio is fantastic for audio only projects (no keyboards as sequences). It is designed for podcasting, but it will do everything I throw at it. This is what I use for processing the audio of my videos the most.

Hokusai: The same developer as Ferrite. The difference between the two has mostly to do with non-destructive rather than destructive editing. Hokusai is more of an audio tweaking program whereas Ferrite is more an audio project assembling program. Though they both do both.

Virtual Instruments: Ravenscroft 275, Korg Module, Neo Soul EPs and romplers. These sound as good as their PC and Mac counterparts. My biggest piano is 2GB and sounds fantastic for instance.

Plugins: The complete Fab Filter suite is available and those are my favorites, but there are many others as well. Not as complete a list as on Macs and PCs, but growing and more than sufficient.

[b1j]

Originally Posted by lkingston

Yes, I have found really great apps for editing audio and video to the degree that I need them at least:

Video editor (plus AUV3 audio plugins): Luma Fusion. This app is a fantastic NLE. I can also add AUV3 effects like compression and reverb, though some AUV3 plugins do not work yet.

DAW: Cubasis 3.0 and Auria Pro. Auria Pro got off to a fantastic start but hasn’t been properly updated lately, so I don’t know about it’s future. Cubasis 3.0 has limits, but they are easy to work around. I wouldn’t use it for a complex project, but my stuff isn’t that complex, at least not layer and DSP-wise.

Audio only: Ferrite Recording Studio is fantastic for audio only projects (no keyboards as sequences). It is designed for podcasting, but it will do everything I throw at it. This is what I use for processing the audio of my videos the most.

Hokusai: The same developer as Ferrite. The difference between the two has mostly to do with non-destructive rather than destructive editing. Hokusai is more of an audio tweaking program whereas Ferrite is more an audio project assembling program. Though they both do both.

Virtual Instruments: Ravenscroft 275, Korg Module, Neo Soul EPs and romplers. These sound as good as their PC and Mac counterparts. My biggest piano is 2GB and sounds fantastic for instance.

Plugins: The complete Fab Filter suite is available and those are my favorites, but there are many others as well. Not as complete a list as on Macs and PCs, but growing and more than sufficient.

Wow. That is an entire ecosystem I know nothing about. This is a fun hobby.

[Bob Womack]

Even Autotune is susceptible to creating artifacts. Down in Nashville there are Autotune specialistas who are brought in to correct singing on albums. They'll come in and spend weeks optimizing the vocals. They don't show up as "Autotune Specialist" in the credits, just as something like "additional engineering by ______", because no artist wants to highlight the fact that he or she can't carry a tune in a bucket with a lid with a lock. It is a field where CNTRL-Z is vital and every move is a compromise. Those who can tune well with few artifacts are artists.

I have used Autotune on slide guitar before where the artist got everything beautifully but one note. Hilarious! I tried to ignore that one, chalking it up to artistic expression, but after many, many passes during the mix I had had it and said, "That does it, I'm fixing it!" No-one noticed that one, including the producer on the album! I've also used it for an overdubbed Hammond B-3 part when everyone was properly tuned but the organ showed up and was sharp by a few cents. It happens, and no-one noticed that one either.

Bob

[jim1960]

I'm a bit fastidious when it comes to making sure the guitar is in tune when recording so the polyphonic capabilities of Melodyne aren't critical to me. For full takes, I'll check my tuning between each one. For punching in shorter sections, I'll let it go a few takes and then re-check. Recording a poorly tuned guitar falls in the category of "Unforced Errors" to me since it's entirely preventable.

I own both AutoTune and Melodyne. I owned AutoTune first and while it worked fine on people who could come reasonably close to holding a tune, for anyone overly pitchy, it just wasn't very good. Melodyne, on the other hand, is amazing on vocals. It provides so much control and really allows you to get into every individual syllable, if necessary (and sometimes it is), and not only pitch correct but also change the length of each syllable, and even change each syllable to a totally different pitch (which makes it a great tool for shaping harmonies). Unless a song needs only minor tuning, I never reach for AutoTune anymore.

[b1j]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

BTW, while you're playing with melodyne, note that it can do a lot more than pitch correction. You can shift the timing, both start and length, of notes, for example. Even individual notes in a chord. So for example, if you came in early on a chord, just grab the notes and pull them right. Or if you accidently let up on the bass note, and it died out too early, just grab that note and drag it out longer. You can add or remove vibrato. Crazy stuff

Doug, I know. Timing is another frontier. I was looking closely for opportunities in this performance, but I seem to have honored the click track well enough as it is. There are a few flubbed notes that I didn’t really land on, but fixing those would require a little more advanced surgery, so I’m letting them go.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by jim1960

Recording a poorly tuned guitar falls in the category of "Unforced Errors" to me since it's entirely preventable.

Of course. But sometimes you do end up with situations where you (or someone else) messed up, and you can't redo the guitar part for one reason or another. It's nice to have tools that can address problems when needed. In most cases, if I discover a guitar is out of tune, I re-record if at all possible. (And things do happen, you may start perfectly in tune, and no longer be in tune by the end of the song.) But there are cases, mixing live recordings for example, where you might appreciate being able to pull off a miracle to fix something that's otherwise unfixable.

I had one interesting scenario a while back recording a CD with a violinist. She added a bunch of tracks to an older recording of mine. I don't think I even still owned the guitar used on the track. Her pitch was quite good, but there was one short spot where the string section sounded flat and sour. So I used melodyne on her tracks. Listening to the strings alone, they sounded perfect. Put the guitar back in and the strings sounded flat just on that one chord. Solo the guitar - sounds perfect. What the heck? But we are talking equal temperment, of course, no guitar is actually in tune on all notes.... And when combined with other instruments, especially those who can adjust their pitch dynamically, things can happen. I brought up Melodyne on the guitar, and sure enough, my bass note was sharp, just a few cents. Not enough to be noticed on the solo guitar, but somehow on that chord, with the voicing of the string section, it was enough to make the strings sound flat relative to the guitar's bass note. I could have re-recorded the entire guitar part, probably running the risk of some other note not being perfectly in tune with the strings. Or a button push to fix just that one note that only lasted 2 seconds, and problem solved!