Recording acoustic guitar

Folkrocket · #1 03-07-2014, 06:57 AM

Hi,
I've got a Zoom HD8. It's got 2 inputs and all I want to use it for is recording myself - vocals/acoustic guitar - just for me, "for practice". I have a Guild F50R w/DTAR, a Martin D-41 w/K&K and a Gibson Songwriter Deluxe w/ a Fishman (I think!). The bottom line is the guitar (doesn't matter which one) sounds "crappy". Not sure how to explain it. Souinds like a cheap electric guitar and nothing like what these guitars sound like "naturally". I've played around with the various effects and the 3-band equalizer and frankly I don't know what I'm doing with any of it.
The vocals sound fine. I'm no Frank Sinatra but at least I can listen to myself without cringeing. Not much anyway. But the guitar, as I said, sounds really trashy. I don't know what to do with low-mid-high, -12db-0-+12db and the various Hz settings that can be set. Same with all the built effects.
I've heard about preamps and DI boxes (are they the same?) and am wondering if one of these would help. I'm really inexperienced with all of this. I'm in my early 60's, use to play "out" a lot when I was younger (many years ago) when all we had was a Shure Vocalmaster with bass, treble, volume control. Any help or suggestions would great.
Thanks

RRuskin · #2 03-07-2014, 10:11 AM

If using a pickup, no amount processing will get you to an honest acoustic sound. A good microphone will probably sound more to you liking.

MikeBmusic · #3 03-07-2014, 10:24 AM

Yep, 1 or 2 condensor mics will capture the guitar's sound, not the pickup's.

Folkrocket · #4 03-07-2014, 10:42 AM

Thanks for the responses.
I know that a mic will probably give a better sound but it still seems to me that I should be able to get better than what I'm getting. I sometimes hear folks playing acoustics with pick-ups in bars/coffee shops and while their sound is not "pure acoustic", it's a lot better than what I'm getting. I realize I'm talking live sound here vs. recorded sound but I still get the feeling I just don't have things set quite right. I have the same issue playing through a behringer mixer out through a couple of 12" Peavey's. Just a muddy, trashy sound.

Doug Young · #5 03-07-2014, 12:25 PM

A direct recorded pickup sound is usually not all that good. You can hear lots of examples on my pickup test page of sort of the bottom baseline - what you get when you plug directly in and do nothing at all to make the sound better. That might give you some indication to start with of what to expect. For more specific advice, I'd post an example of what you have. It's hard to say anything useful without hearing the sound you're getting. But in general, there are all kinds of things you can do to process a pickup and make it sound better, but it's unlikely to ever come close to even a bad mic recording.

Folkrocket · #6 03-07-2014, 01:01 PM

Doug,
I'm not that "tech savvy" to go about posting an example. I guess I was just looking for some general guidelines (or where to find them) on how to properly use and set EQ and things like gain and volume etc. I've been doing some "google searches" without much luck. I've tried playing around with all these things but the combinations are endless and frankly, I'm lost. Thanks for your input.

Doug Young · #7 03-07-2014, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Folkrocket

Doug,
I'm not that "tech savvy" to go about posting an example. I guess I was just looking for some general guidelines (or where to find them) on how to properly use and set EQ and things like gain and volume etc. I've been doing some "google searches" without much luck. I've tried playing around with all these things but the combinations are endless and frankly, I'm lost. Thanks for your input.

You can simply upload a file to soundcloud. A worthwhile thing to learn how to do.

I wrote an article ages ago for AG, something like "20 tips for recording with a pickup", but I don't think it's available online anymore. In spite of that, I don't think there really is much general advice to be given. There's no "known secret" to recording a pickup - or if there is, I don't know it :-) As you say, there are endless possibilities. I'd start by plugging in directly, setting levels, and recording. You should be able to get sounds similar to those on my pickup page. If not, then there may be some issue. For example, with the K&K, it's possible that you would have an impedance issue with the K&Ks -in which case a preamp might help, tho the DTar should be fine into any input. You should be able to get a sound that's "not great, but OK".

From there, it's a matter of EQ, effects, etc, to get it to resemble a mic'd recording on a bad day, which is about the best you can hope for. The processing to make it sound decent is probably easier on a computer based system where you have lots of flexibility and tools.

Folkrocket · #8 03-07-2014, 01:43 PM

OK I guess I'll just keep tryin'. You're saying the DTAR shouldn't need a pre-amp. Is that because it basically has one built in - thus the batteries?

perttime · #9 03-07-2014, 01:53 PM

When I hear a raw plugged in guitar sound, I usually miss the "room ambience" that you get when playing indoors: small amounts of echoes and such.

Very moderate amounts (and combinations) of reverb/delay/chorus might help with that.

Doug Young · #10 03-07-2014, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Folkrocket

OK I guess I'll just keep tryin'. You're saying the DTAR shouldn't need a pre-amp. Is that because it basically has one built in - thus the batteries?

Right. The built-in preamp buffers the pickup and provides the proper input impedance for the actual pickup. You also have preamps in your recorder, so it's not a given that you need yet another one, even with the K&K, but it's possible that your recorder inputs are not optimal for a passive unbuffered pickup. But if your DTar also sounds bad, then that's probably not the problem. You may just be discovering that pickups don't work very well for recording. Go listen to a few of the samples on my pickup page - do those sound better, worse, or the same as what you're getting?

Folkrocket · #11 03-07-2014, 02:16 PM

Doug,
I did listen to a few of your samples and they do sound better than what I'm getting. Your samples are using preamps, right? If my recorder already has a preamp that's probably not my issue. After doing some internet searching at lunch today, I'm wondering if my gain and volume settings might have something to do with it. I'll be trying things as soon as I get home today.
Thanks again.

Doug Young · #12 03-07-2014, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Folkrocket

Doug,
I did listen to a few of your samples and they do sound better than what I'm getting. Your samples are using preamps, right? If my recorder already has a preamp that's probably not my issue. After doing some internet searching at lunch today, I'm wondering if my gain and volume settings might have something to do with it. I'll be trying things as soon as I get home today.
Thanks again.

I've used a variety of preamps, yes. Anything you plug into basically has a "preamp", that's what you have on each channel of your recorder. But I don't know anything about your recorder, it may be less ideal for a pickup. It may also be gain/volume, etc. It's really hard to diagnose without hearing what you're getting. But my recordings are meant to be as bare-boned as possible - I'm not doing anything to make them sound "good", I'm just using straight-forward guitar preamps to provide a somewhat consistent interface, and to act basically as a DI to my recorder's inputs.

Davis Webb · #13 03-07-2014, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Young

A direct recorded pickup sound is usually not all that good. You can hear lots of examples on my pickup test page of sort of the bottom baseline - what you get when you plug directly in and do nothing at all to make the sound better. That might give you some indication to start with of what to expect. For more specific advice, I'd post an example of what you have. It's hard to say anything useful without hearing the sound you're getting. But in general, there are all kinds of things you can do to process a pickup and make it sound better, but it's unlikely to ever come close to even a bad mic recording.

So true. We have all tried, believe me.

djh1765 · #14 03-09-2014, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Folkrocket

Thanks for the responses.
I know that a mic will probably give a better sound but it still seems to me that I should be able to get better than what I'm getting. I sometimes hear folks playing acoustics with pick-ups in bars/coffee shops and while their sound is not "pure acoustic", it's a lot better than what I'm getting. I realize I'm talking live sound here vs. recorded sound but I still get the feeling I just don't have things set quite right. I have the same issue playing through a behringer mixer out through a couple of 12" Peavey's. Just a muddy, trashy sound.

I have found that to me none of my guitars sound as good when I play them compared to someone else playing and me setting accross the room listening.

I'm referring to the sound of the guitars not the playing.

Don't understand why but that is just the way it is.
djh

rick-slo · #15 03-09-2014, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djh1765

I have found that to me none of my guitars sound as good when I play them compared to someone else playing and me setting accross the room listening.

I'm referring to the sound of the guitars not the playing.

Don't understand why but that is just the way it is.
djh

A fuller, more balanced sound, projects out in front of the guitar. Further out from the guitar some natural room ambience (reverb) kicks in.