Laney AH4X4 vs Bose S1 Pro - S1 twice the price

[SpruceTop]

Cuki does it again in going above and beyond in an effort to help us hear and understand tone! Thanks!

[Per Burström]

Originally Posted by necrome

The Bose S1 Pro is easier to carry

In what way is the AH4X4 hard to carry?

[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by Per Burström

In what way is the AH4X4 hard to carry?

I don't know for Necrome but I can speak for myself:

The AH4x4 is a stick. Althought the weight is similar to the Bose, the form factor makes it more difficult to handle. The bag handle is in the middle so basically it swings a bit. The slight swing that occurs when you are carrying has to be compensated by your wrist.

The Bose S1 pro has a cubic form factor, so most of the mass is close to your wirst, it won't swing. Moreover the Bose has a backpack. But I am not sure having the Bose on your back and your guitar in the hand helps the wrist... It really depends on how lightweight is your guitar and gigbag.

Note that the sitck form factor has an advantage: you can use lower lightweight pole mount and still have a speaker at ear height.

For me the Bose S1 pro is only superior if you can put on the floor and save yourself the pole mount.


To conclude:
Laney AH4x4
1) less loud (you can get extra gain with outboard preamp but not enough to reach the Bose SPL)
2) stand at ear level on a small lightweight pole mount
3) No EQ
4) 3 x e-cigarette Li-ion batteries (cheap, reliable, easy to have spare)
5) Flat sounding (not huge in bass, but flat sounding)
6) 12v Phantom power included
7) more line inputs
8) Gain is not great but enough (not anemic as JBL eon 1 or Mackie freeplay)
9) Has a subwoofer output with built-in crossover (something that is ask a lots of time on the Bose pro forum)
10) No channel EQ
11) lightweight
12) Close cabinet design (no bass reflex) it does not "fart" with heavy low end. The low end is just cut.

Bose S1 pro
1) Louder
2) 100-200 Hz bump in the response. Sweet Bose "piano bar like" tone.
3) Auto EQ when on the floor
4) Channel EQ + tonematch settings
5) Unbeatable formfactor
12) Lightweight
13) Starts to "fart" with heavy low end (Bass reflex?).
14) Great input gain (finally some engineer who think about real-world users!)
15) Backpack
16) expansive battery
17) Some units have battery problems

[necrome]

Just like Cuki said, the AH4x4 swings around - making it difficult to have the weight distributed well against your body. I sling mine on the shoulder and it feels heavier than it really is. The net on the gigbag has also started tearing because of where the bag handle is located.

All said though, the AH4x4 is likely the best audio purchase I made in the last 5 years even with its flaws; already paying for itself multiple times over. I sometimes imagine myself having an easier time physically with the S1 Pro but I can't justify paying a much higher price for sound quality I find inferior.

Really really hoping for a product that checks all the right boxes appear soon!

[Per Burström]

What voltage does the phantom power support? It's not mentioned in the Laney specs, but I think I have seen a reference to 12 volts. I have a Rode M2 condenser microphone that need 24 or 48 volts.

Thanks,
Per

[Cuki79]

The phantom power is 12V

Write to Rode, my Shure Beta 87a takes everything from 11v to 52v

https://www.shure.com/en-US/support/...e-for-beta-87a

[nickv6]

"
The other problem is psychoacoustic. The idea that being deaf at certain frequencies make them useless is related to linearity. If everything is linear then a filter removes the perception of the given signal. I am not sure our perception of sounds is linear. An example, again in psychoacoustic is the missing fundamental effect. To overide the inner limitation in the low end of our ears, the brain tracks the harmonic beatings and fill the missing fundamental in the "perceived" sound. Of course you can tell me that it goes in your direction and that if the brain compensate for the ears we don't need the low end. I'd say it is not necessarly true. It depends if the harmonic that your brain tracks to produce the missing fundamental was already present in the original sound or were created by another nonlinear process (from interaction with other elements in the room)."

This is true in my experience with pianos. It's why short grand pianos sound "tubby" in the bass. The strings would need to be 30feet long to achieve the fundamental, so the strings are wrapped and even double wrapped to slow them down. This produces the harmonics required for the brain to percieve the fundamental which is, in fact, missing. However, there is a clear "tone" difference. Walk from a 4 foot baby grand to a monster Bosendorfer and the difference is obvious immediately, although the brain "registers" the same note.
Also there was an experiment done many years ago when telephones used carbon cartridges for microphones. The bandwith was very restricted, centred around the human voice of course. Someone, whose name escapes me at the moment, wrote some music carefully organised such that when it was transmitted over the phonelines, a bass line could be heard which could not possibly be transmitted. It came from the interaction of the other notes.
Nick

[lkingston]

Originally Posted by nickv6

"

The other problem is psychoacoustic. The idea that being deaf at certain frequencies make them useless is related to linearity. If everything is linear then a filter removes the perception of the given signal. I am not sure our perception of sounds is linear. An example, again in psychoacoustic is the missing fundamental effect. To overide the inner limitation in the low end of our ears, the brain tracks the harmonic beatings and fill the missing fundamental in the "perceived" sound. Of course you can tell me that it goes in your direction and that if the brain compensate for the ears we don't need the low end. I'd say it is not necessarly true. It depends if the harmonic that your brain tracks to produce the missing fundamental was already present in the original sound or were created by another nonlinear process (from interaction with other elements in the room)."



Nick

Excellent post Nick!

I’ve also noticed the same effect with my ears as my hearing has deteriorated. When I listen to a poor quality sound system, the window the sound is largely in a high range of frequencies that I can no longer hear. Worse yet, within that high frequency rang is a lot of far Monica that are the result of distortion. Then, within the lower frequencies I still have, much of the sound is missing. The effect of this is that I can’t pick out different instrument parts and often can’t even tell what the notes are.

When the sound is really good however, it is reproducing the sound in all frequencies including the ones I still hear. There are no extra harmonics aliasing down from distortion either. The result is that my brain fills in the parts that are missing and suddenly I seem to be able to hear everything clearly! This is because I’m hearing enough of the patterns from harmonic series of the notes that my brain can piece together the parts that I can’t hear. I know I still can’t actually hear the highs real, but my listening experience is the same as if I did.

I also experience a lot of pain from hyperacusis from any speaker that resonates at high frequencies.

I have always cared deeply about good quality audio, but now the difference is even more striking. With poor quality speakers, I can hardly tell what is going on, but with great quality amplification, it is almost like I don’t have a problem at all!

You don’t have to hear everything: just enough to be able to make out the patterns. If you have that, your brain will fill in the rest, including the parts you can’t hear anymore!

This is I’m so particular about my pickup and my amp. For someone with my hearing, it makes the difference a painful experience where I’m struggling to distinguish words and notes, and a wonderful experience where my hearing issues appear to disappear during the performance.

[jonfields45]

The low pass is inaudible to me but the high pass I can clearly hear, but I wonder if it is because I perceive it to be louder....

[zhunter]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

However I am pretty sure Bose has its own tone and is not flat sounding. Most of the reviews I've read including the one with a lots of measurement, say that the high end is decreased. My interpretation is that Bose wants to remove any aggressivity to its tone and insure an nice listening experience. I don't say it is bad or good. But I think people are allowed not to agree with this tone choice.

I'd rather believe that people at Bose have engineered their own tone with taste than believe that the whole speaker industry is full of dum guys who have fed us with commercial marketing garbage on the 14KHz-20 KHz range... I hope I am not fooling myself

my 2 cents,
Cuki

Scuse me for clipping your post but you hit on something that twists my brain. I get what you are saying about the Bose sound. But...I often hear Bose systems as sounding harsh even fizzy sometimes. We regularly gig a room that provides a Bose tower for sound and by the end of the night I am getting hearing fatigue from it. Partly I think that is due to proximity since the requisite distance cannot be obtained. I am probably getting a cone beaming effect. I have heard other users get a harsh almost piercing sound from one.

Is that from an upper midrange peak maybe?

FWIW I was in an occupation that required yearly hearing tests and every year I tested out just fine. I have played live music for many years but took steps from the beginning to protect my hearing.

hunter

[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by zhunter

Is that from an upper midrange peak maybe?

I also find that Bose can sometimes sound harsh however it is a very difficult question to answer. I read Bose systems are very difficult to measure because of the unconventional pattern. I guess because the sound results of the sum of many speakers there must be cancelling and constructive interferences all over the place for all the frequencies...

Here is a quote from a French review of the Bose S1 pro

Measuring a speaker that operates on the Bose 901 principle is always a feat and the S1 is no exception.
After a few hundred sweeps and other chirps, a choice of position for the measuring microphone was found with a precision of millimeter and a windowing system that eliminates reflections in the bass. We eventually managed to obtain a curve that depicts the tonal color of the S1 quite well.
The 900 Hz accident is probably due to the arrangement of the transducers and their filtering but also to the measuring distance, but for the rest, we obtain a curve that holds between 80 Hz and 15 kHz...

NB: I used deepL translator (+ personal correction).


The Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) is the following


Here is the THD with 105dB output


and when the output is further pushed of 6dB

The THD low end explosion is I guess what I hear when the Bose S1 pro starts to fart.

Here is a link to the original french review
Link to the french review

I guess what you experienced is the Bose being pushed too hard. In this case the limiter starts to protect the woofer in the low register. The mid-high speaker then jump out and appear harsh. This is not specific to Bose... But Bose systems are generally meant to be quiet, I imagine easily people pushing them way above their standard volume.

That would be my 2 cents.
Cuki

PS: I did try again the Bose S1 pro this week end... and again, it was not really convincing... the dealer told me that if you have a wall power socket around a Schertler or Acus would sound better... That's also my feeling. Since I already own the AH4x4, I can justify the acquisition. I also confirm the superior form-weight factor of the Bose.

[martingitdave]

I've had my S1 Pro for a year and I use it often. It's a bit of a love/hate relationship. On one hand, I've never found a box that gets as loud as it does, that was smaller lighter and easier to use. On the other hand, the sound quality isn't great at close range. I can say that on the several occasions when I have used it outdoors, it was phenomenal. It's a specialty use tool like everything in music gear. ;-)

[jonfields45]

Sort off/near to topic...

There are 9800 mAH Li Ion 12 volt rechargeable batteries on eBay for a little more than $20. I ordered one that claimed hundreds had been sold (and only found one bad review).

I have previously power metered my CP8 blasting MP3s at 12.5 watts out of the wall outlet. BTW half of that was overhead and still present with no music. I am guessing the CP8 was running roughly ~6 watts continuous with ~60 watt peaks which is really loud.

I have a greater than 90% efficient pure sine wave inverter I bought for $70.

I have an XLR Y cable and a 3.5mm TRS to dual female 1/4" adapter with which we can plug everything direct to my CP8 (and did this once at a gig where our mixer power supply failed). I've never EQ'ed a vocal mic and all our guitars have pedals with copious knobs.

And I've just booked a 2 hour no AC outdoors gig for May 19.

So why buy a dedicated knee-capped-for-a-battery amp where that battery might be so proprietary it is either expensive (today) or irreplaceable (tomorrow), when for less than $100 you can take your $340 CP8 to the gig (or any other brand's equivalent)???

BTW, I've also done some power measurements on bottom of the line A-B junk powered speakers and at these volume levels they actually draw less power (hint - there is not a computer stuffed in them running all the time). Too bad they actually sound bad :~(.

[Cuki79]

Good point Jonfields45!

[Chriscom]

So why buy a dedicated knee-capped for a battery amp where that battery might be so proprietary it is either expensive (today) or irreplaceable (tomorrow), when for less than $100 you can take your $340 CP8 to the gig (or any other brand's equivalent)???

Convenience. And to put it another way, speed, including the speed of acquiring something you know will work, a.k.a. peace of mind.

How many musicians know how to put assemble the right pieces above, and how much time will it take them? A pure sine wave inverter, what the heck is that? (I know). How much power do I need i.e. what kind of battery do I need? Where do I get it? Even on Amazon tons of the electronics products are defective cheapos and even with reviews it's not always clear what you're getting. And so on. The other part of convenience is the logistics of setup and breakdown and the serenity of worrying less about forgetting stuff.