Laney AH4X4 vs Bose S1 Pro - S1 twice the price

[Per Burström]

Howdy,
I have an awesome SA330X but am looking for something smaller and battery powered to complement it. Here in Sweden (for example through gear4music) the Bose S1 Pro is twice the price of the AH4X4... is the S1 worth the price premium? Vocals is most important.

The AH4X4 can use rechargable AA NiMH batteries which I already have plenty of.

Thanks
/Per

[necrome]

The Laney needs rechargeable 18650 batteries to run at full power, if you only use AAs the unit will clip very easily. The Bose S1 Pro is easier to carry and can go louder, but the AH4x4 sounds more balanced and neutral because of the tweeter.

[Cuki79]

I Agree with Necrome.

By the way Necrome did you buy the Bose S1 pro? There is an offer right now where I live... I am tempted but I am not sure it is worth since I already own the Laney AH4x4... I was never convinced by the Bose the two times I could briefly try it.

[Tico]

Originally Posted by necrome

The Laney needs rechargeable 18650 batteries to run at full power, if you only use AAs the unit will clip very easily. The Bose S1 Pro is easier to carry and can go louder, but the AH4x4 sounds more balanced and neutral because of the tweeter.

... "because of the tweeter"
???

Did you mean to imply the Bose has no tweeters?
The S1 has 3 tweeters - all facing in different directions BTW for excellent dispersion of high frequencies.

Sorry I can't comment on the Laney but FWIW my S1 has superb sound and the battery lasts a long time.
Also, it has the same power whether operating on AC or battery.

[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by Tico

... "because of the tweeter"
???

Did you mean to imply the Bose has no tweeters?
The S1 has 3 tweeters - all facing in different directions BTW for excellent dispersion of high frequencies.

Sorry I can't comment on the Laney but FWIW my S1 has superb sound and the battery lasts a long time.
Also, it has the same power whether operating on AC or battery.

Bose use midrange drivers. Not tweeters.

For example Bose L1c bandwidth goes up to 14 kHz with the similar drivers (see link below).
A tweeter goes up to 20kHz

More data from:
https://toonz.ca/bose/wiki/index.php...%C2%AE_Compact

Bose S1 Pro uses
Three 2.25" (5.715 cm) high-excursion drivers
The bandwidth is: 62 Hz – 17 kHz +/- 3dB
Crossover frequency is 600 Hz.

For example, the FIshman man mini charge which as a more traditional design uses a Tweeter 1” soft dome
The band width is: 80Hz – 20kHz

I bet the crossover frequency is around 1-2 Khz similar to most speakers.

Here is a link to the Bose L1 story
https://toonz.ca/bose/wiki/index.php...roject_History
They clearly state using "mid/high drivers"

[Cuki79]

Another thing that is scary is the battery draining issue

I know people from the AGF have their units replaced... Still it is scary

https://www.bosepro.community/g/port...-in-use?page=3

[Captain Jim]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

Another thing that is scary is the battery draining issue

I know people from the AGF have their units replaced... Still it is scary

https://www.bosepro.community/g/port...-in-use?page=3

The battery draining issue hasn't been much of an issue, especially if you are aware of it. Battery life while playing through the S1 hasn't been a problem; the issue on some units has been the battery discharging while the unit is sitting, unused. Simple remedy (if you don't want to send it in for an update): charge it up the night before you will be using it.

Early on with the S1, the battery was sold separately, so there are units out there that don't have an installed battery.

The real take-way is: Bose is taking care of their customers. I bought my S1 the day they started including the battery with it, at no additional cost. My unit was one that had a battery drain when not being used. Bose replaced it. I didn't know I had a problem until it was discussed on the Bose Pro forum. As a matter of practice, I always plugged it in the night before taking it out.

Nothing "scary." The sound of the S1 is impressive, especially considering the size and weight. Great battery life when in use, and the same power output whether plugged in or on the battery.

[necrome]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

I Agree with Necrome.

By the way Necrome did you buy the Bose S1 pro? There is an offer right now where I live... I am tempted but I am not sure it is worth since I already own the Laney AH4x4... I was never convinced by the Bose the two times I could briefly try it.

Hi Cuki, I didn't get the S1 Pro because I'm not convinced with the sound, the price and the lack of a mixing board. It doesn't have the neutral tone I always try to aim for. Granted, the form factor and weight are very enticing for a travelling musician, but I think I'll hold out for something better in the future. I played for a dinner party a few weeks ago with the Laney and it sounded exactly like how I wanted it to.

I did get a second unit of AH4x4 to try and get more volume during my outdoor performances. That worked terribly though, lugging two of them around is superbly difficult (I don't drive) and there's always a sizzling noise when you link them together. Tried replacing the units of AH4x4 and cables etc. but nothing worked.

It really bugs me that there aren't more choices out there - as if the companies that put out these products don't really consult people who use them. An updated S1 Pro with a tweeter and 3-band EQ would be near ideal!

Kudos for the great reply regarding tweeter issue above!

[ricdoug]

Download a frequency generator or hearing test app on to your smart phone or device, Cuki79. I guaranty you can not hear 14KHz. I've dealt with and tested pain field generators when I was in the USMC. 9KHz to 12KHz are the upper limits of what the human ear can audibly hear. You definitely cannot hear 20KHz. Bose uses mid/high drivers that accurately reproduce the audio range that the human ear can detect. I personally know one and only one person that can hear 13KHz and make sure to suppress frequencies below that when she is in my audience. Those higher frequencies give her a headache. 10KHz is a tweeter frequency. Try 10KHz here and turn up your speakers:

http://onlinetonegenerator.com/

Your ears will rarely detect audio frequencies above 10KHz, regardless of your age.

Originally Posted by Cuki79

Bose use midrange drivers. Not tweeters.

For example Bose L1c bandwidth goes up to 14 kHz with the similar drivers (see link below).
A tweeter goes up to 20kHz

More data from:
https://toonz.ca/bose/wiki/index.php...%C2%AE_Compact

Bose S1 Pro uses
Three 2.25" (5.715 cm) high-excursion drivers
The bandwidth is: 62 Hz – 17 kHz +/- 3dB
Crossover frequency is 600 Hz.

For example, the FIshman man mini charge which as a more traditional design uses a Tweeter 1” soft dome
The band width is: 80Hz – 20kHz

I bet the crossover frequency is around 1-2 Khz similar to most speakers.

Here is a link to the Bose L1 story
https://toonz.ca/bose/wiki/index.php...roject_History
They clearly state using "mid/high drivers"

[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by ricdoug

Download a frequency generator or hearing test app on to your smart phone or device, Cuki79. I guaranty you can not hear 14KHz. I've dealt with and tested pain field generators when I was in the USMC. 9KHz to 12KHz are the upper limits of what the human ear can audibly hear. You definitely cannot hear 20KHz. Bose uses mid/high drivers that accurately reproduce the audio range that the human ear can detect. I personally know one and only one person that can hear 13KHz and make sure to suppress frequencies below that when she is in my audience. Those higher frequencies give her a headache. 10KHz is a tweeter frequency. Try 10KHz here and turn up your speakers:

http://onlinetonegenerator.com/

Your ears will rarely detect audio frequencies above 10KHz, regardless of your age.

I know what you mean and I am old enough to be deaf around 14 kHz.

I don't have any scientific explanation why I can hear the difference between some studio monitors with flat response over a large bandwidth and a speaker with a less large bandwidth. Maybe I am just fooled with insignificant numbers.

Another point to take into account is psychoacoustic and other senses. If one look at a Munson and Fletcher human response curve, human are even more deaf at low frequencies.



On this figure, the 125Hz range is perceived as loud as the 16kHz. So we are basically as deaf at 16 KHz as at 125Hz.

Following this observation, and your post, everything below 150 Hz can be dumped and is useless. This is exactly the argument of Andy Powers from Taylor guitars for the V-bracing. Who cares about the "Puff" (page 13 in the last wood and steel), it's not musical, impossible to amplify... and by your standard it's not even heard.

Well a lots of people will claim they love the feel of an old X-braced boomy Martin and buy a subwoofer to "feel" the low end. I guess it's typically a range where other senses must work. You probably feel with your skin the air moving and the vibration of the body of the guitar... But honestly I have no idea.

The other problem is psychoacoustic. The idea that being deaf at certain frequencies make them useless is related to linearity. If everything is linear then a filter removes the perception of the given signal. I am not sure our perception of sounds is linear. An example, again in psychoacoustic is the missing fundamental effect. To overide the inner limitation in the low end of our ears, the brain tracks the harmonic beatings and fill the missing fundamental in the "perceived" sound. Of course you can tell me that it goes in your direction and that if the brain compensate for the ears we don't need the low end. I'd say it is not necessarly true. It depends if the harmonic that your brain tracks to produce the missing fundamental was already present in the original sound or were created by another nonlinear process (from interaction with other elements in the room).

The simple example is the Aphex Exciter and many types of "enhancer". They take a low frequency signal, distort it and blend the produced harmonic content to your raw signal to get more "presence" and "loudness" feel. If you have already cut the low frequency signal... there is nothing to be enhanced.

To conclude, if the sound perception is a nonlinear process, dumping frequencies even in a deaf area might affect how you perceive the tone.

To come back to the specific case of Bose, whether the speakers are "able" to produce enough high end is totally out of my range. I guess heavier, larger speaker are able to move more air at low frequencies and smaller, lightweight speaker are more able to respond to high frequencies... But my skills stop there.

However I am pretty sure Bose has its own tone and is not flat sounding. Most of the reviews I've read including the one with a lots of measurement, say that the high end is decreased. My interpretation is that Bose wants to remove any aggressivity to its tone and insure an nice listening experience. I don't say it is bad or good. But I think people are allowed not to agree with this tone choice.

I'd rather believe that people at Bose have engineered their own tone with taste than believe that the whole speaker industry is full of dum guys who have fed us with commercial marketing garbage on the 14KHz-20 KHz range... I hope I am not fooling myself

my 2 cents,
Cuki

PS:
Here is a sample made



1) no EQ
2) Lowpass filter 10 KHz -24dB
3) Highpass filter 125 Hz -24dB
4) Lowpass filter 10 KHz and Highpass filter 125 Hz -24dB



Please use headphones, if you can't hear a difference or you think it's insignificant, it means you don't need no tweeter, and you've been fooled by the music gear industry for years!!

Note that, the compression has little effect: I recorded with a zoom H2 in mp3 mode so every artefact from compression was already in the original file before EQ.

Note2: I apologize to the OP for hacking the thread.

[lkingston]

My good ear cuts off around 12K (which sometimes I think I can hear). I don’t believe one needs to worry about frequencies much above that in any room that has a drinking age!

[necrome]

@Cuki79, can't believe you took the effort to do a comparison like that, really appreciate it!

I hear a huge difference, but I'm likely one of the youngest on the forums as well so maybe the deafness hasn't set in yet

[lkingston]

Originally Posted by necrome

@Cuki79, can't believe you took the effort to do a comparison like that, really appreciate it!



I hear a huge difference, but I'm likely one of the youngest on the forums as well so maybe the deafness hasn't set in yet

I worked as a sound man for years and over that time my ears went from spectacular to terrible. Right now, everything sounds muted and the tinnitus is usually louder than anything in the room.

This is a separate conversation, but protect that above average hearing or you’ll lose it! Keep sets of earplugs in your car, your guitarcase, on your keyring, etc.. If you are stuck without them and the show is too loud, chew up some wads of paper and stick them in your ears. You don’t want to lose it!

[necrome]

Originally Posted by lkingston

I worked as a sound man for years and over that time my ears went from spectacular to terrible. Right now, everything sounds muted and the tinnitus is usually louder than anything in the room.

This is a separate conversation, but protect that above average hearing or you’ll lose it! Keep sets of earplugs in your car, your guitarcase, on your keyring, etc.. If you are stuck without them and the show is too loud, chew up some wads of paper and stick them in your ears. You don’t want to lose it!

I will! Bought front row seats to a Mr. Big concert last year and I walked out three songs in because it was unbearably loud even with my ears plugged. Ears were hurting from the first note onwards. Wonder why live events have the volume turned all the way up to levels of physical pain, it's not musical at all.

[martingitdave]

Great analysis!

I have the S1 Pro and Eon One Pro. I’ve had some other full range speaker too. The S1 Pro is pleasing to listen to, but it doesn’t sound like the rest of the flat response speakers I’ve had. The highs (regardless of the math) are diminished in direct comparison to other speakers. I’m not saying that makes the Bose better or worse. But, it’s not the same to my ears as a conventional 2-way flat response monitor or speaker.

As an example, I did a LOT of pickup testing last week. And, truthfully, nearly everything sounded good into the Bose S1. But, when I would direct record, or plug into a flat response system, the sound would be very harsh. I concluded that the Bose S1 is a smooth sounding speaker that is great for its intended purpose. But, it’s not the same as a reference monitor, or even a fully flat response 2-way PA speaker.

Incidentally, both Cuki and Ricdoug appear, to me, to be correct with respect to their observations.

In conclude that the S1 sounds different (and good), but perhaps not for the specified reasons. Instead, it sounds different because of the way the system is voiced, in the Bose fashion. That will work for many people, as is the Bose MO. But, not for everyone, as exampled by Cuki and Necrome.