Beginning Mandolin- Next Step and Final Step

[Bob Womack]

What are the sound differences between carved top instruments with F-holes and round sound holes?

Bob

[pjheff]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

What are the sound differences between carved top instruments with F-holes and round sound holes?

While there are many other factors believed to influence tone — neck join, elevated fretboard, etc. — ovals tend to add bass and sustain while f-holes emphasize midrange and cut.

[posternutbag]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

What are the sound differences between carved top instruments with F-holes and round sound holes?

Bob

It’s really hard to generalize tone with respect to mandolins, but generally I would describe it like this, carved top oval holes sound more hollow, or to be less charitable maybe slightly boxy, and carved top F hole instruments are more focused or, again to be less charitable, maybe slightly piercing.

[Br1ck]

Originally Posted by posternutbag

Mandolin Acquisition Syndrome Flow Chart

1. Do you want to play bluegrass?

No: Then get a handmade flat top mandolin from Big Muddy/Mid Missouri, Howard Morris, Poe (if you are lucky) or maybe a Northfield Calhoun. All are great mandolins and available for under $1k new or less used.

Yes: In this case you will need a carved top, preferably with “F” holes, but in most cases I would advise you to stay away from ”F” bodied, so called “Florentine” mandolins. They are the ones with the scroll. While scrolls are pretty, you can get a much nicer “A” style body with “F” holes for much less money.

Carved top mandolins
In the sub $1k mandolin world, I would recommend an Eastman 305 (~$400-$500 new) or an Eastman 505 (~$750), which will have a gloss finish and better tuners (and debatably a better tailpiece). A 315 “F” body shape would cost about $750, and a 515 around $1100. So you see you can get a nicer “A” for the same money as an “F”.

Right at $1k you can get a 2014-2018 Kentucky 900 series, if you are lucky. These are really good, very different from the lower echelon Kentucky mandolins (which by and large have failed to impress me). There are also some oddballs at the $1k range, things like used Breedlove Quartz OF that are good mandolins, but you have to know what you are looking at to correctly ascertain their value.

Final step? Don’t ask. Gibson, Gilchrist, Monteleone, Dudenbostel, all run north of $25,000 for an F5. Kimble, Ellis, Collings, Red Diamond are all $8-$12k for their F5s. Collings, Weber, Northfield, as well as used Flatirons and used Gibsons, run $5-$8k.
If you can live without the scroll, “A” style Collings, Northfields and Pavas start at about $3k and can be has used for a little less. An Ellis A style is $5-$6K; a Kimble A a little less, and used Gilchrist, Nuggets and Dudenbostel A styles run $8-12K.

Scour the Mandolin Cafe classifieds. Happy hunting.

Your pricing is too high, as there are F style mandolins much cheaper. Gibson's F 9 is $5200 new, Collings MF starts around $5400. Yes, they go up fast. Northfield is to me significantly better value with the F5 S at around $3700. These will not be fancy mandolins, but Collings in particular has really nice wood. Northfields generally don't, but they look a bit nicer.

The Northfield Big Mon is very nicely appointed, fully bound with some headstock inlay, but not the flame maple of a Collings. But it would get my $4700 as it is a fine sounding mandolin.

But if you were not exclusively a bluegrass player, a Silverangel is a HUGE step above an Eastman. I had an MD 505. I've played mine next to the Collings MTs and they are different but equal. Alas, I've gone over to the dark side and my F style gets the play.

It is not a game for the feint of heart. But an F style mandolin is to me a very beautiful object, and having built one, I understand the work involved.

[Br1ck]

F holes are designed to project and cut through in a group setting. Oval holes are generally warmer and a bit more resonant. My Silverangel A style f hole has x bracing and a redwood top, and it splits the difference. A Collings MT is brighter.

Another nicely priced brand is Ratliff. His Country Boy model is very affordable.

Fretboards are also very different. Old school is flat fingerboards and small frets. This is traditional Gibson. Eastman has arched fretboards and skinney frets. Marketplace factors has caused even Gibson to offer both styles as preferences have developed for arched and larger frets. Even my A 1 was refretted with larger banjo style frets.

I'm building an old school mandolin right now with flat board and tiny frets. If it doesn't work out, I'll just arch the board an pound in some bigger frets.

[JMFingerstyle]

One thing I'll mention about the Eastman MD-305. While they're a great value for the price, if you get one, you will likely be unhappy with the tuning machines. They're only a 14:1 ratio, which is a little loose for a mandolin. Budget in an extra $70 for a set of 18:1 Grover 309's.

[Dave Hicks]

Originally Posted by posternutbag

It’s really hard to generalize tone with respect to mandolins, but generally I would describe it like this, carved top oval holes sound more hollow, or to be less charitable maybe slightly boxy, and carved top F hole instruments are more focused or, again to be less charitable, maybe slightly piercing.

I would agree with the charitable and uncharitable parts.

Ovals are warm and sustainy. To my mind, they sound good for backing up vocals if you're not playing a bluegrass chop, and also are great for playing fiddle tunes of various denominations. They seem to get a bit lost if you're playing with several other people. F-holes give more cut in a group situation. On the other hand, I recently heard a really good mando player in a small bluegrass group (trio) use a Gibson oval. He worked the mike when he wanted to solo vs. doing backup; he had no problem staying in the mix.

If I'm recording something, I usually use an oval (Gibson A0 in my case); if playing out at a jam, I'd go for an f-hole (Flatiron A5Jr).

As for the "final step", I'm still waiting for it after 40 years.

D.H.

[Br1ck]

I just got back from a music camp and heard a decent variety of mandolins. There was a couple of old Gibson A styles, A Collings MT O, an MT, an MF Deluxe, a Kentucky KM 1000, a Stelling belonging to Tristan Scroggins and a Gibson Darrington era Master Model. All of them worked fine. In a class with everyone playing the same thing, no one was drowned out. I think it comes down to what you are going to do with it.

The Gibson and the Stelling (John Hamlett built) were real powerhouses. But if you play fiddle tunes or Celtic, the oval holes might be better. Or the real answer is one or two of each. Or just spend the $20K for a Master Model Gibson.

[Norsepicker]

I got really lucky and bought a wonderful used mandolin for $1500 when I started from Jason Harsbarger at Harshstrings. Everyone loves it and wants to play it when they come over. I've seen his Copperhead for sale in a couple of places, particularly on the Banjo Hangout other instruments page. They want 3 grand but since it's been there awhile, you might be able offer less.

[keith.rogers]

In addition to some of the comments made already, a big difference (in "carved" top models) is that they almost always differ where the neck joins the body, with oval hole instruments set around the 12th fret and f-hole at the 15th fret. There are a few builders that might move that around but it's a safe assumption when looking at traditional A or F models.

The "arched" tops on these things may be "carved" but whether they are hand or machine carved is sometimes not mentioned, and, like guitars, the bracing (or lack of!) also makes a difference. Some of the arch tops you see may not have been carved at all, but pressed into shape. You have to get specific about the instrument to know what it is you are actually looking at or buying.

And, like all things acoustic, the sound can be all over the place, and the sound from a few feet away to a listener (or microphone in ensemble recording), may be pretty different from what reaches your ear. So, play everything you can.

[Br1ck]

Pressed arch tops are on many cheaper mandolins. Best to stick with Kentucky KM 150 or above for carved tops. All Eastmans have carved tops, but many lower priced the Loars do not. Is it the 400 that does? Buy one of these from a serious dealer like Elderly, Gryphon, or the Mandolin Store. It is very important you get a well set up mandolin.

Knowing what I know, I'd buy an Eastman MD 305 or 315 for my first mandolin, or the Kentucky KM 150. These can all be made to play easily.

Next step up, possibly the Kentucky 900 and above. This is the only middle ground mandolin I've played. Time to decide on a scroll or not. Not will forever save you money. At this point you get a satisfying if not outstanding G string tone.

Someone bought a $1500 mandolin, to me the gateway to truly satisfying tone, especially used. My Silverangel was $1400 used and compared to the Collings and Northfields I've played side by side. A Weber Galatin would fit here too. The F style at this sonic level is at least $3000 or so. But $1500 will get you a crackerjack of a used A style, or a teens Gibson oval.

What $1500 gets you is real tone, nothing thin, a G string that is resonant and rich. My Silverangel is on the rich and deep end of the spectrum, almost an oval tone. The other end is the go to Collings MT. Lucky if you find one for $2000 these days. Bright and modern. Might be all you ever need.

[SalFromChatham]

I have an Eastman MD304. Gig with it. Play at home. I suppose I get tempted to ask myself … hmmm should I buy an old Gibson?

By the way… in terms of personal preference, I also owned a Big Muddy flat top paddle mandolin. They sound warm, and I think underrated. But then again I like warm.

[Br1ck]

An old Gibson is almost a different beast. Bigger and shorter neck than your Eastman. Mine has been refretted with bigger frets. It does O'Carolan tunes wonderfully, Celtic in general, and is great for old timey, and fiddle tunes.

It will probably project better than a flat top, and don't discount owning a piece of history.