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Jt1 has played many Kim Walker guitars in addition to owning quite a few...For me, I havent played as many as he has but those I have played would not lead me to classify Walker's sound as being that of a vintage guitar. His signature tone seems to combine the tone of a vintage guitar with a modern fingerstyle guitar to my ears. I have little doubt Walker is capable of building the vintage tone if he wanted to though as he is one of the most skilled luthiers I have ever come across.
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In the end it is about who you love above yourself and what you have stood for and lived for that make the difference... |
#17
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Any guitar, set up to the satisfaction of a given player, would allow THAT players style to be easily identifiable. Go watch some Woody Mann videos playing anything from a vintage Gibson J-185 to a Monteleone Hot Club, and they all sound like Woody Mann. Here's a Kim Walker that, for me, needed a slightly higher action/heavier plain strings, but it was literally just being delivered to the owner. HE
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My New Website! Last edited by Howard Emerson; 04-25-2023 at 04:30 AM. |
#18
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Nice playing! (BTW Crossing Crystal lake is still one of the tunes I like to hear as lot on my car stereo)
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In the end it is about who you love above yourself and what you have stood for and lived for that make the difference... |
#19
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Howard, Sinistral and Gitarro thanks for weighing in. It sure would be nice to hear from JT1 on what 3 builders he was referring to in his post.
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#20
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Great conversation, all. Fabulous playing, as always, Howard!
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John |
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#22
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What a tease! ;-) I don't pay attention too much to pre-war martin style builders, so I won't know the other two builders for golden age style guitars.
However, for general guitar building, I would rank these three at the top, not in order - Kim Walker, Ervin Somogyi and TJ Thompson, based on the reputation and the price they demand. And maybe put Jim Olson right behind those three, as he has even better name recognition and high price the market is wiling to pay for his guitars. I only have experience with Walker, Somogyi and Olson personally though. So TJ is based on what I've heard second hand. Reached out to TJ Thompson back around ~2017 and got no response, when I asked about placing an order. (There are other great builders besides the above who provides far better price to performance ratio, and can deliver 95% of it at 1/3 the cost. But the above three or four seems to be what the MARKET seems to say as the "top builder" based on the secondary market demand and sold prices. They are not sort of flavors of the year type of the builder but very respected for a long time) Last edited by Johnny_Boy; 04-27-2023 at 04:03 PM. |
#23
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Jim Magill Director, The Swannanoa Gathering Guitars:'07 Circa OM, '09 Bashkin 00-12fret, '10 Circa 00 12-fret, '17 Buendia Jumbo, '17 Robbins R.1, '19 Doerr Legacy Select, '12 Collings 000-28H Koa. Pre-War guitars: '20 0-28, '22 00-28, '22 000-28. Mandolins: '09 Heiden Heritage F5, '08 Poe F5 , 1919 Gibson F-4, '80 Monteleone Grand Artist mandolin, '83 Monteleone GA (oval),'85 Sobell cittern. Last edited by jmagill; 06-13-2023 at 06:16 AM. |
#24
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A couple thoughts:
- TJ Thompson is no doubt the World's premier restorer of vintage pre-war Martin guitars - He was Dana Bourgeois's apprentice and made some guitars for Eric Schoenberg in the early days of Schoenberg Guitars in between Dana and Julius Borges. - He has been working at his bench for about 40-years now - He makes his own guitars now and then among his restoration work and they are few and far between (I have played one) - Most importantly, he is an exceedingly nice guy who is generous in sharing his knowledge... - As others have said, the market decides upon the value of a builder's work - If Dream Guitars has set a price and if it is out of alignment with the market will bear, it will not sell. If they are correct, it will. - Everyone has their own limit as to when a builder's price exceeds a player's perceived sense of value. Additionally, timbral and playing preference and price are frequently divergent. Some of the builder's mentioned in this post (e.g., TJ Thompson and Kim Walker.) while FANTASTIC builders of instruments, are essentially no longer in reality taking new orders for custom commissioned guitars. As a result, while I admire their work, I never recommend them. This aspect also drives the market price of the instruments (demand outstrips supply). For myself, when people ask me about a more traditional custom instrument the builders that are still taking on new commissions that I recommend are: - Nick Kukich (Franklin Guitar Co.), - Bruce Sexauer (Sexauer Guitars) and - John Slobod (Circa Guitars). Bruce is 76-years old, Nick is 70-years old and John is now 60-years old so they will not be building forever. My $.02
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A bunch of nice archtops, flattops, a gypsy & nylon strings… |
#25
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#26
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For those still agog at the price of the TJ Thompson guitar, consider this item that appeared recently at Dream Guitars: a 1930 Martin OM-45 Deluxe. This was probably Martin's fanciest production-model guitar, and it's one of only 14 ever made. Dream had it priced at $515,000. and it was gone in less than a day.
If price and value are related-but-different as I've suggested, how does the relationship between them work for a guitar like this? I've managed two music stores in the past, and I think of guitars as having what I call an 'intrinsic cost', or what it actually cost to make. This includes the price of the materials, the labor to build the instrument, the company's marketing and distribution costs, the dealer's overhead, and the final sale to a customer, with everyone involved making a fair profit each step of the way. For a new instrument, the intrinsic cost is pretty closely aligned with the retail price. For instruments that are used, vintage or rare, other factors determine price, but their intrinsic cost remains the same. This OM-45 Deluxe probably sold for a few hundred bucks in 1930 – a pretty penny back then. For the sake of argument, let's say it was $300, or $5,400 in today's money. This intrinsic cost is still off the selling price by a factor of nearly one hundred. When these two amounts get this far apart, the guitar's value as an instrument for making music becomes secondary, if not irrelevant. I've played several guitars with 6-figure price tags, and they were great guitars, but I always focus on value rather than price, and considering their intrinsic cost, none of them had a value I considered to be anywhere close to their selling price. Guitars like TJ's and this Martin are not being sold to the likes of you and me. They're going to well-heeled collectors who can spend half a million on a guitar and think they got a good deal. And they're probably right. They are not like us. So, admire these guitars for the eye candy they are, as you would a 50-ft. yacht or a gold-plated Lamborghini, and don't get bent out of shape by their crazy-stupid prices. .
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Jim Magill Director, The Swannanoa Gathering Guitars:'07 Circa OM, '09 Bashkin 00-12fret, '10 Circa 00 12-fret, '17 Buendia Jumbo, '17 Robbins R.1, '19 Doerr Legacy Select, '12 Collings 000-28H Koa. Pre-War guitars: '20 0-28, '22 00-28, '22 000-28. Mandolins: '09 Heiden Heritage F5, '08 Poe F5 , 1919 Gibson F-4, '80 Monteleone Grand Artist mandolin, '83 Monteleone GA (oval),'85 Sobell cittern. Last edited by jmagill; 08-10-2023 at 03:38 AM. |
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#29
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$1,000,000/2. Jeepers. I passed on a pre-war D18 decades ago that was priced at 18-19K at Elderly. Sounded *amazing* but was rent and food for a couple years so no go. You could buy a Collings or Santa Cruz in those days for 3K ish and that is what I aspired to own to get intrinsic and extrinsic to line up for me. Woulda, coulda, shoulda is the 20/20 hind-site vantaged view….maybe. Still have the Collings!
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Multiple guitars including a 1979 Fender that needs a neck re-set |
#30
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Perhaps John would say...if he were to say...Lynn Dudenbostel, Wayne Henderson, and TJ if we are talking vintage Martin. Those 3 fellas can consistently fetch the BIG money without anyone batting an eyelash, and their guitars consistently deliver the goods to hold that level of reputation. You could add Kim Walker to that list, whenever he wants to build in vintage Martin voicing. duff Be A Player...Not A Polisher |