So the Belichick vs Brady debate is over right?

[blue]

discuss

[619TF]

There's a debate? Not in the mind of myself nor my friends. Both really seem to be jerks.

[buddyhu]

Originally Posted by 619TF

There's a debate? Not in the mind of myself nor my friends. Both really seem to be jerks.

Certs is a candy mint.
Certs is a breath mint.

[ctgagnon]

Impossible to determine without ceteris paribus. Football-wise. Personally is another matter.

[FOG01]

What is the debate? Who was chiefly responsible for their collective success?

[Jobe]

Bill was making more money than Tom. Tom had a prettier wife. Conflict.

[blue]

Originally Posted by Jobe

Bill was making more money than Tom. Tom had a prettier wife. Conflict.

mumble mumble mumble Giselle mumble mumble mumble... We're on to a hotter wife... We're on to a hotter wife...

[Gitfiddlemann]

My stab at a serious answer.
In a team sport like football it’s not possible to put it solely on 2 people. Arguably, it’s true that the head coach and QB are the most important individuals. But:
It takes two to tango, and a whole team to win championships. Thus, the argument over who out of the two is most important is moot.
Given the choice in 2020 on which of the two to keep, I’d keep Bill. He uses his brain to keep his job. Tom, at 43, is just one big hit away from retirement. ;-)
(It almost happened on Saturday night in the first half when he was hit and his knee awkwardly bent straight and almost backwards, before his instincts took over and he fell down properly.)

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by AndreF

My stab at a serious answer.
It takes two to tango, and a whole team to win championships. Thus, the argument over who out of the two is most important is moot.

This is true, but so what. Statements like that make all speculative discussion of sports moot, and that’s no fun!

I’ve long been of the opinion that Belichek made Brady better than Brady made Belichek. I don’t know that I was wrong, but this season has certainly convinced me I might be. Brady’s not close to his best, but he’s still REAL good. And Belichek doesn’t have much of a team to work with, but Cam’s a legit QB who can be great on occasion and having mediocre talent never got in BB’s way before. And, for this season, at least, Brady has made a lot more of his situation than Belichek has made of his. This season isn’t definitive, but it’s one strong data point in Brady’s favor.

-Ray

[Gitfiddlemann]

Originally Posted by raysachs

This is true, but so what. Statements like that make all speculative discussion of sports moot, and thatÂ’s no fun!

IÂ’ve long been of the opinion that Belichek made Brady better than Brady made Belichek. I donÂ’t know that I was wrong, but this season has certainly convinced me I might be. BradyÂ’s not close to his best, but heÂ’s still REAL good. And Belichek doesnÂ’t have much of a team to work with, but CamÂ’s a legit QB who can be great on occasion and having mediocre talent never got in BBÂ’s way before. And, for this season, at least, Brady has made a lot more of his situation than Belichek has made of his. This season isnÂ’t definitive, but itÂ’s one strong data point in BradyÂ’s favor.

-Ray

Good points.
It's too bad that 2020 was such a weird year. Bill's plate was worse than usual. Losing impact players on defense (Collins, Hightower and Chung especially) really hurt. The offense had a late addition in Newton, and safe for a solid running game, he didn't have much to work with to compensate for his "newness" to the team. You're right though that BB usually makes the best of it, but those were pretty tough bullets to get hit with.
Tom made the wise move of getting out and going to a team that was built much more towards complementing his talents, and his age. Getting him Brown too was a terrific move on the Bucks part.
If he had stayed, he might not have finished the year here.
I'll say this though: If the Bucks and Brady continue to play well, I might have to come back to the thread and give you a win in the argument part.

[robj144]

Originally Posted by raysachs

This is true, but so what. Statements like that make all speculative discussion of sports moot, and that’s no fun!

I’ve long been of the opinion that Belichek made Brady better than Brady made Belichek. I don’t know that I was wrong, but this season has certainly convinced me I might be. Brady’s not close to his best, but he’s still REAL good. And Belichek doesn’t have much of a team to work with, but Cam’s a legit QB who can be great on occasion and having mediocre talent never got in BB’s way before. And, for this season, at least, Brady has made a lot more of his situation than Belichek has made of his. This season isn’t definitive, but it’s one strong data point in Brady’s favor.

-Ray

Brady has always been very good. To say that Bill made him isn't really looking at the little things he does.

It's my view that to have a 20 year run like they had (in a league that's designed to prevent that), they both have to be GOATS and they are both equally important to the Pats success. It's impossible to know, but I suspect if one was there without the other, they would have had some success (one or two Superbowls), but not the success they saw over that time.

Tom is having a good season because he's still great and he's surrounded by talent. Arians, however, is not nearly the same caliber of coach as Bill and I doubt they make it to the Superbowl on Brady alone.

Bill had no talent and still won 7 games when most would be struggling like the Jets.

It's a trick question because they are both equally important.

[buddyhu]

Bellchick just released an interesting statement. While it relates to something that is strictly off limits here in AGF, i can say that it emphasizes the importance him being a representative of groups: his family, and The Patriots. It also talks about “great leadership within the team” creating things that were rewarding for him to see his past year.

Based on his expressed appreciation for the team, for taking pride in his team despite their losing record (at least, that is how i read it), and his being an element within social and family systems, I am more inclined to give him a bit more credit, and a (perhaps temporary) lead in the Brady v. Belichick competition.

[RussL30]

Originally Posted by buddyhu

Bellchick just released an interesting statement. While it relates to something that is strictly off limits here in AGF, i can say that it emphasizes the importance him being a representative of groups: his family, and The Patriots. It also talks about “great leadership within the team” creating things that were rewarding for him to see his past year.

Based on his expressed appreciation for the team, for taking pride in his team despite their losing record (at least, that is how i read it), and his being an element within social and family systems, I am more inclined to give him a bit more credit, and a (perhaps temporary) lead in the Brady v. Belichick competition.

Interesting statement, but I feel like his hand was forced on some of the things he said. I’ll leave it at that.

I have a lot of respect for both. Brady is showing he can be successful elsewhere even at an advanced age and if Belichik sticks around long enough I feel like he can rebuild the Patriots into a competitive team. I don’t know if they’ll ever
replicate the dynasty they had because that’s something that is extremely impressive and very rare.

I think it just ended up being a perfect marriage between the two, but nothing lasts forever in the NFL.

[Tyeetime]

I don't believe it's possible to answer this in simple terms.
It was a perfect storm in my opinion.
Belichick was able to out-coach pretty much everyone, and Brady was able to deliver with a higher degree of success than almost everyone else.

I believe Bill Walsh/Joe Montana was a similar combo.

I think we could have seen equal success if it was Parcels/Brady or Belichick/Manning.

That's just the way I see it.

[Jim Owen]

My respect for Bill just increased tenfold.