#31
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#32
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Again not try to debate or belabor this just trying to understand, and I find this subject interesting. We actually had this discussion in the Critical Listening class I took online at Berklee And I can fully understand that with two different mics the ears are going to hear two different sets of characteristics including discrepancies and frequency response . Which is I suppose part of reason why some prefer two different mics for the stereo pair. And understanding that even with a matched pair there will actually still be minuscule (depending on quality of construction) if probably undetectable by ear, differences. So for the sake of discussion we will say say the matched pair are producing the same responses and would have the same discrepancies. But with a matched pair it would be as you say "and you have the same phase discrepancies in each mike" .......... But what I am trying to figure out is " But but each ear hears a different set of discrepancies". It doesn't seem possible that the same actual set of discrepancy characteristics can be changed either physically or phychoacoustically and heard differently (other than "timing differences") ? Wouldn't it still be the same set of discrepancies, but simply at different arrival times ? I could be wrong but. I guess what I am getting at is... If it is in fact it is the same set of discrepancies at different arrival times .......Wouldn't it follow then that a one mic recording with the track duplicated and time slipped (to the same differences of arrival times) would sound the same as a two mic recording?...even the Ambience which as you say is " timing differences between the two ears, when possible, into space and direction (ambience). "Also I understand that the two human ears actually hear slightly differently but that difference is also not going change between the time differential of a a stereo and similarly time slipped dual mono. And for certain there may well be something in the more complex nature of psychoacoustic phenomenon going on I am not aware of. It is pretty interesting that humans can with only 2 ears (theoretically stereo only right to left) actually hear in 3 D I have often heard people claim that a two mic stereo recording is somehow better and distinguishable from a time sliped ... But I have yet to read a complete solid explanation as far as I can understand, as why that would be. What we concluded in the Berklee discussion was the only way to resolve the question would be to conduct a blind test and see if in reality people can actually consistently distinguish a difference between a stereo and a similarly time slipped double mono recording and consistently distinguish which is which.
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Enjoy the Journey.... Kev... KevWind at Soundcloud KevWind at YouYube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD System : Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1 Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Sonoma 14.4 Last edited by KevWind; 03-17-2014 at 10:23 AM. |
#33
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Enjoy the Journey.... Kev... KevWind at Soundcloud KevWind at YouYube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD System : Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1 Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Sonoma 14.4 Last edited by KevWind; 03-17-2014 at 10:01 AM. |
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Derek Coombs Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs "Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love To be that we hold so dear A voice from heavens above |
#35
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So I am now speculating this might be why Doug prefers a spaced pair . And why placement is so very critical ding ding ding
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#36
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One thing I find with mic placement is that there's some appeal of "different" at least for me, so I go thru phases. I'll get used to spaced pairs, and then try MS again, and like the different sound. Or get the Jecklin disk out, and go "oh, now, that's nice". Round and round :-) But it's hard to beat the spaced pairs both for sound and the flexibility of mixing. I don't feel as bad about altering the levels on a spaced pair to get the image precisely dialed in as I do with MS, where it seems like I should nail it exactly in the mic setup.
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Is it still unbalanced? I didn't listen in headphones, maybe that makes the bass on one side more obvious. Maybe someone else could download the track and see if they can do a better job on this than I am. I also wonder, being that this is guitar player, if the author was using this technique more for a rhythm track. With a pick strumming, you'd get more high end energy on the other track, and perhaps a centered image would be less important in a mix.
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Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar |
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I like the idea.
Of course, I stopped double-mic'ing my guitars three years ago. I'm not recording solo acoustic guitars though. Acoustic guitars are only a part of a larger arrangement in my recordings. If I were recording a project involving a great acoustic player solo, I'd stereo-mic him or her.
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Ceci n'est pas une pipe bebe. Youtube France (Film Musique & Fantomas) --- Guitars: (2007) big Vietnamese archtop; (1997) Guild F65ce, (1988) Guild D60, (1972) Guild D25, two other Vietnamese flat-tops and one classical. |
#39
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Yeah, that was the problem. The bass was off to one side and the treble off to the other. It was weird.
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#40
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That is how the GP technique is supposed to work although the degree of it is controllable.
__________________
Derek Coombs Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs "Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love To be that we hold so dear A voice from heavens above |
#41
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If anyone disagrees with that, it's OK by me. The real proof is in the listening, and although I have no imperical evidence to back it up, I can be pretty confident that most critical listeners would prefer stereo micing to any time domain or EQ hocus-pocus that can be done with a single point signal. I think I can detect that trend even from the low numbers of responders we have in this topic. Publishing something like that is a good way to get people to buy magazines, though. There just isn't any free lunch. |
#42
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I don't thinks anyone disagrees with you at this point.
Below is a typical waveforms of a right and left channel stereo track. There are obvious differences between the two in frequencies and volume levels at those frequencies.
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Derek Coombs Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs "Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love To be that we hold so dear A voice from heavens above |
#43
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That's a very nice way to graphically illustrate what we hear, thanks.
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#44
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This has been a really interesting discussion for me. Once I've finished building my new isolation booth, I plan to try some of this stuff out. Thanks for a lively discussion and the food for thought!
T.
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#45
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What would be a truly interesting and confirming test. That would indeed put all this to rest. Would be a blind listening test with a single mic and a pair of the same mics. Do a time slipped dup of the single with some slight eq. differences, then a stereo track of the pair run dry. Then see if in reality that first, the difference can be consistently identified, and also then if identifying which is actually which, can be accomplished consistently. Lastly and perhaps it goes without saying he other factor in all this the context of use. If the intended use is for a solo acoustic instrumental track then I think squeezing the last few percent of quality out of stereo recording is certainly the primary goal . As soon as we start adding other instruments into the mix, the priority then begins to shift and increasingly so as more instruments are added.
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Enjoy the Journey.... Kev... KevWind at Soundcloud KevWind at YouYube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD System : Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1 Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Sonoma 14.4 Last edited by KevWind; 04-12-2014 at 07:49 AM. |