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#16
03-27-2011, 04:18 PM
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Tru-Oil brand (which I was using today) and Lin-Speed are linseed oil based finishes with some drying agents added. They are not penetrating oils or machine oils like 3 in 1...
Think linoleum - "Linoleum was invented by Englishman Frederick Walton. In 1855, Walton happened to notice the rubbery, flexible skin of solidified linseed oil (linoxyn) that had formed on a can of oil-based paint, and thought that it might form a substitute for India rubber. Raw linseed oil oxidizes very slowly" He ended up adding cork dust and made flooring out of it. It really only makes a great wood finish when there are many coats applied and polished off to make a sealing, glossy, but thin surface. Some of my knifemaking friends have also experimented with thinly applied cyanoacrylic glues - super hot/super fast - and polishing them down......NOT for the hesitant or fainthearted! Work on a $1000 knife goes down the drain just as fast as other art pieces in the hands of a careless craftsman. I only raised the question b/c I hadn't seen it discussed much in the guitar forums, and I have a lot to learn if I want to expand my crafting skills beyond fine cutlery.... 
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#17
03-27-2011, 04:32 PM
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I've used violin oil varnishes with violin spirit varnish over for many years on mandolins, but the very first coat is always spirit as it seals, and dries practically as soon as it hits the wood.
Guitars are just treated differently and oil is not really recommended. Before y'all go all Collings on me, let me say that some stores like the Podium in Mpls won't even take a varnish instrument. They get beat up too easily. Now, lots of finishes are called varnish. Sure there's catalized, spar, floor, all kinds of garbage they call varnish. However, there's only a few that are fit for instruments AND repairable, IMO.
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#18
03-27-2011, 05:20 PM
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#19
03-27-2011, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
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#20
03-27-2011, 06:54 PM
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I used Tru Oil on a couple of guitars because it is so easy to do. Biggest downside is that it is minimal protection for the guitar.
Here is a detailed thread about it over at LMI: http://www.lmii.com/carttwo/truoil.htm
__________________
Derek Coombs Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs "Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love To be that we hold so dear A voice from heavens above
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#21
03-27-2011, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
What about using shellac as a sealer, like you already do, and THEN applying the Tru-Oil as an easy-to-repair finish with more of a satin look to it. I'm thinking about some of the finish cracks you tend to see over time with the laquer topcoats. I know the linseed-based oil won't crack and if you need to touch things up, it is not a big deal. Guess I'll experiment if/when I get around to a build...it's just as tempting to me to try new things as it is to play with steel tempering temperature curves!
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#22
03-28-2011, 09:03 AM
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From Bonni at Bourgeois;
"We continue to use Satin Nitro on the necks because it allows for fastest action when playing. Other laquers and varnish offer resistance to your hands. Regarding the brand of oil varnish, Dana keeps that proprietary. But, I guess the important part is to know that it is oil not spirit varnish. We had players using it on the road all last summer and had no issues with stickiness etc."
__________________
Trevor.
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#23
03-31-2011, 05:29 AM
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Not to stray too far afield, but I have a mahogany D-15 Martin that has a large skin-oil stain from my forearm on the top. Even though the flat-finish on the Martin is perfect in my eyes, the spot really shows off the depth and beauty of the peppered grain... Any ideas on how to remove or even lessen it without leaving a worse stain?
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#25
03-31-2011, 06:50 AM
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This is a multipart condensed answer. Email is best for specifics, I have to get to work soon:
A. Physical properties of sound transmission through plates. Possibilities include 1. Gross vibration, P & S waves in the main thickness of the plate. 2. Surface waves along the surfaces of the plates 3. Waves in / through materials on the plate 4. Waves in the boundary layer Damping substances seem unlikely to impact the primary P & S waves, but may influence the surface waves and the interaction of plates to boundary layer B. Nature of "oil" 1. Assuming "oil" is a drying oil with additives and vehicle 2. Vehicle likely makes a big difference in penetration. The Liberon uses Naptha, doesn't penetrate as effectives as say acetone. 3. Specific oils likely have very different characteristics. I changed to Tung oil in my violin varnish and find it better for me and different from flax / linseed oil. For one thing, linseed oil is too often contaminated. But there's more than that at play. Tru Oil is linseed based. C. Substrate for "oil" 1. Different woods 2. Differential absorption 3. Preparation of surface 4. Perhaps aging of surface Makes for an interesting set of "noise" inducing parameters D. Violin finishes in the old days. From memory, bear with me. Byzantine (Roman) generic system shows up in violins. 1. Primer. Wood treatment. In very very general and expanded modern terms could include heat, cryogenic, penetrating compounds (e.g. borax). Very likely to have been used intentionally (e.g., fungicide) or by accident (e.g., ponding leading to modification of pores) in the classical violin period. I have tried enough stuff to know that it has an effect and I do not understand it well enough to control. 2. Sealer. Prevents ground from penetrating too deeply. Refractive properties. Some evidence (see the amusing Nagyvary's work - his data is often good, although some other things have provided controversial) that plant gums were used. Also see Sacony vernice bianca. Hydrated organic molecules. I use gum arabic. Big effect. One could put oil over this and get a nice coat without much penetration. I must try this!! 3. Ground. To prepare a surface for color. A key. Violins seem to have a ground of very fine mineral powder. This makes the ground firm and very very fast. The addition of such a ground decreases lock time from an impulse very noticably. May be "waking up" the plates to accept the primary P & S waves. Wraps the instrument in vibration very quickly. A key to tone, also. Not apparently used in guitars. Transparent where the matrix matches the filler in refractive index. Much debate. Should be tested in guitars. 4. Color coat - tinted translucent in instruments, opaque on stone, canvas. Mainly shouldn't interfere with what the ground is doing acoustically, in the instrument world. 5. Clear varnish coat - in contact with air, has subtle effect. E. Effect of oil or cooked oil varnishes on violins. Soak in a finish and the instrument gets warm, dark, appeals to beginners. Better players wanting speed, power, brilliance think these are horrible. I agree, but the dull muddy ones sell well to beginners! F. Suggestions for guitar use 1. Seal the wood. Shellac. Gum arabic. Whatever. Even burnishing really changes absorption. 2. Thin coat likely dries more quickly, less chance for absorption. 3. Somebody try putting fine mineral powder in the oil. Do this on test strips. Control, with sealer alone, with sealer & oil, with oil only, with sealer and oil containing as much mineral powder as it will handle. I really want the results. I could do this, but I'm really backed up. Must get to work, if you want to do this you can use my extra bench. I have the wood. I have tried & true something or other, tung oil, boiled linseed oil, flax oil, and lots of toxic solvents. Nice thread. Keep going. Off to work. Located E. TN near Smokies
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#26
03-31-2011, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
If you'd like to use email as stated, mine is [email protected], but I'd bet lots of the readers would like to hear you expand on your ideas!
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