Tonedexter and a Thin-Bodied Acoustic Guitar (Crowdster)

[open-road-matt]

Hi Friends!
Back in September I bought a Tom Anderson Crowdster. (The regular Crowdster, not the Plus or the Plus 2.)

I didn't initially bond with this guitar so I tried to sell it. For about 3 months! I finally lowered the price as low as I was willing to go and still didn't get any offers. I just figured I was meant to hold on to this one and I'm glad I did!

I love the way the Crowdster feels and plays but I wanted a bit more acoustic body to the tone.

After a few helpful emails from James at Audio Sprockets I decided to give a Tone Dexter another try. (I tried one a while back and returned it but that's another story.)

The Tonedexter arrived on Wednesday. I quickly trained it with two of my acoustics, a Collings DS1A w/a DTAR Multisource (mic turned off,) and an Epiphone EL-00 Pro with a Baggs Element.

The only instrument mic I have is an SM57 so I used that on both guitars and didn't mess with mic placement at all. Just went with about 10" from where the neck meets the body.

One reason I returned the Tonedexter the first time around is that it's in my nature to tinker and I was worried about spending a ton of time trying different mic placements, buying new mics, etc. My goal this time around was to get WaveMaps made quickly to see if I was going to like the results of using the Tonedexter with the Crowdster.

I only made one WaveMap per guitar and then plugged in the Crowdster. The results were only decent. The Collings is not a great recording guitar. There is so much going on with that huge instrument. I didn't feel like that WaveMap blended very well with the Crowdster. The Ephiphone has a much simpler tone and I think because of that, the WaveMap seemed to blend a bit better with the Crowdster. But I still found myself turning the character knob further and further down. So my first go-around wasn't perfect but it was enough to make me think this will work with the right guitar and the right WaveMap.

My best recording guitar is my J45 but I had pulled the Baggs Element out of that and stuck it in the Ephiphone. Thursday morning I put the Element back in the J45 and did another quick training session with the ToneDexter and my SM57. I had high hopes that the J45 with the Element (the same pickup as the Crowdster) was going to do the trick!

It sure did! The J45 WaveMap blends very nicely with the Crowdster! By far the best of the 3. I'm running the character knob at 65%, a very slight boost (1.5) on the treble knob and the notch at 133 Hz and I'm quite happy with the tone. I feel like I'm getting a full, round, natural acoustic guitar sound with the Crowdster!

It's like having my cake and eating it too! (what a weird expression!) The Crowdster really is a fabulous stage guitar. It's so comfy to wear and so easy on my often sore left hand to play. I love having the knobs right at my fingertips and the EQ knobs are very functional for tone shaping. To have all of that AND the ability to get a big, natural plugged in tone with this guitar is really great!

As happy as I am now, I will still probably tinker just a bit. I have a friend who owns a studio here in town and he said I could borrow some mics so I'll probably do that and try a few more training sessions with his mic(s) and the J45 but I could be done now and be happy!

I know this post would be a lot better with some sound samples so I'll try to get some recorded and posted.

I just wanted to share these results and let folks know that (at least to my ear) it's possible to take some of these really well designed, feedback proof, easy to play stage guitars and give them the acoustic body and natural tone that is often the missing ingredient with these instruments.

Matt

[varmonter]

that's cool .. i've been thinking about the crowdster
as a gigging guitar for awhile. The ability to
use my TD to make it sound better live is
interesting. Does it sound really processed?
I have a parlor that i play thru a big dred
wavemap and it doesnt sound like itself.
Love to hear the sound clips when you get
them done.

[open-road-matt]

Originally Posted by varmonter

that's cool .. i've been thinking about the crowdster
as a gigging guitar for awhile. The ability to
use my TD to make it sound better live is
interesting. Does it sound really processed?
I have a parlor that i play thru a big dred
wavemap and it doesnt sound like itself.
Love to hear the sound clips when you get
them done.

"Doesn't sound like itself" is a good way to describe what I was hearing when I was trying to blend too much of the Collings or Epiphone WaveMap. And it didn't take much with either of those to be "too much," especially with the Collings WaveMap.

I like what I'm hearing with the right blend of the J45 WaveMap and it doesn't sound processed to me. If I push the blend up past 75% something will catch my ear from time to time. That 65% range seems to be the sweet spot. I could see going with more pickup and less WaveMap if I was playing in a noisy room. The tone with the character knob rolled all the way down is still an improvement over the raw pickup.

I feel like I need to keep in mind my goal with this and that is to add just that bit of acoustic "air" and body. I am asking the ToneDexter to make one guitar sound a bit more like another guitar. It might be easy to go too far with that!

I feel like I could be in the minority here in the fact that I like many things about the tone of a quality under saddle transducer in a good guitar. The plugged in tone of the Crowdster is pretty close to good for my playing style and what I do. It just suffered in comparison to my huge Collings with a dual source. Now with the Tonedexter and all the positive stage guitar attributes of the Crowdster, it is my best gigging guitar!

Matt

[MikeTX]

Hi Matt,

I am real happy you found a way to make the Anderson work for you, WAY TOO NICE a guitar to sit idle or be traded! Bet it's great for you now..

My Tele Acoustic is my Go-To guitar for the band now. In addition to the expert setup job, I had my (brilliant) guy add a twangy treble pickup to it, with proper controls for all different options - just great.

Cool how things have a way of working out!!
{thought I had a pic on my phone, but NO - I need to TAKE one!

Best to ya Matt - MIKE O'

[open-road-matt]

Originally Posted by MikeTX

Hi Matt,

I am real happy you found a way to make the Anderson work for you, WAY TOO NICE a guitar to sit idle or be traded! Bet it's great for you now..

My Tele Acoustic is my Go-To guitar for the band now. In addition to the expert setup job, I had my (brilliant) guy add a twangy treble pickup to it, with proper controls for all different options - just great.

Cool how things have a way of working out!!
{thought I had a pic on my phone, but NO - I need to TAKE one!

Best to ya Matt - MIKE O'

Great to hear from you Mike!

I’m glad the Tele Acoustic is working so well! You should post a pic!

You’re right about things having a way of working out. I’m really glad I held on to the Crowdster. I was surprised when I kept lowering the price and not getting any interest but now I know why!

Matt

[MikeTX]

First Matt - you KNOW I agree with you about appreciating the sound of a very high quality undersaddle pickup. "Sound Like My Great Acoustic Amplified" is of course between difficult and impossible, AND not a practical goal in the first place. I STILL want to hear your Anderson up close and personal!

And.. Let's see YOUR super cool guitar as well please? Thanks, MIKE

[guitaniac]

One of the unexpected (by me) benefits of ToneDexter has been its potential for modeling.

I'm glad to hear that you found the combination which works for your situation. It makes sense to me that having the same model of pickup in the platform guitar (the Crowdster) and the modeled guitar (the J45) would yield the best chance of success.

[open-road-matt]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

It makes sense to me that having the same model of pickup in the platform guitar (the Crowdster) and the modeled guitar (the J45) would yield the best chance of success.

James suggested that this would be the case. So far so good!

Matt

[open-road-matt]

Well...my enthusiasm for the Tonedexter/Crowdster combo has waned. It's interesting how a break can change one's perspective!

We had a sick kid last week so I went a few days without playing at all and when I plugged back in I thought the tone was a bit dull and lifeless.

I took the Tonedexter out of the chain and played a bit plugging straight into my Bose T1 and then spent some time going back and forth, Tonedexter vs. no Tonedexter.

The Crowdster has a lively plugged in sound. At least that's the best way I can describe it. It has a Baggs Element under saddle transducer and when I use the Tonedexter it definitely removes that "bite" that I guess some people call quack. (I've never liked that term) but in doing so, it seems to be robbing the tone of some of the liveliness that I enjoy.

The tone with the Tonedexter is smoother and more mellow but also sounds a bit squashed compared to the sound of the pickup plugging straight in. And this is true even if I roll the character knob all the way down. That brings in more of the pickup sound but the tone still seems a tad muffled and squashed vs. just the pickup.

I should add that when I'm going back and forth I'm removing the Tonedexter from the chain and not just using the bypass function on the Tonedexter for whatever that's worth.

I've tried retraining my guitars but I still haven't gotten ahold of any mics other than my SM57.

Can any experienced Tonedexter people offer any advice?

Thanks!
Matt

[guitaniac]

FWIW, I tended to prefer the DTAR Mama Bear's drier sounding target guitars with the Renaissance RS-6 which I once owned. I preferred target guitar #4 (created with Laurence Juber's spruce/mahogany signature model Martin OM) and target guitar #7 (created with a Gibson J45).

If the Crowdster is like the RS-6, it has a longer sustain than a regular acoustic and there's no way it'll sound exactly like a regular acoustic. A bit of modeling will round out the tone nicely, however. If you have that last ToneDexter update, you'll hopefully be able to find a blend of dry signal and Dexterized signal which pleases your taste. Albeit, the WaveMap will need to be a fairly compatible match for your platform guitar (the Crowdster).

[open-road-matt]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

If the Crowdster is like the RS-6, it has a longer sustain than a regular acoustic and there's no way it'll sound exactly like a regular acoustic.

I haven't played an RS-6 but the Crowdster does have a nice amount of sustain. It took a while for the plugged in tone of the Crowdster to grow on me but now I really like it. I played a gig with it a couple of weeks ago. At that point I had ordered the Tonedexter but it hadn't arrived yet. I remember thinking that had I done that show prior to ordering the Tonedexter, I wouldn't have ordered it. I was quite happy with the tone. (and I still am!)

Originally Posted by guitaniac

A bit of modeling will round out the tone nicely, however.If you have that last ToneDexter update, you'll hopefully be able to find a blend of dry signal and Dexterized signal which pleases your taste. Albeit, the WaveMap will need to be a fairly compatible match for your platform guitar (the Crowdster).

I'll keep messing with it to see if I can figure something out that works a bit better. I believe I have the most updated version of the Tonedexter. I've only had it about a week and a half so I'm assuming it shipped to me with the update. Is that update what allows me to use the character knob to blend a percentage of the pickup with the WaveMap?

As for creating a WaveMap that best matches the Crowdster, my Crowdster has a maple top with mahogany back and sides and a Baggs Element. That also perfectly describes my J45 so I still think that's my best bet.

I'd like to try a better mic and maybe explore the slot 22 which I believe makes for a WaveMap without any anti-feedback right?

Thanks for your help!
Matt

[guitaniac]

Any WaveMaps created in slot 22 are WaveMaps which don't have the guitar's two lowest resonant frequencies intentionally reduced. In my experience, slot 22 WaveMaps don't work as well for live amplification. That lowest resonant frequency really booms out (when using a slot 22 WaveMap) with my gigging guitar.

The slot 22 option was created with direct recording in mind. There may be some instances where a slot 22 WaveMap will work well for live settings, but that hasn't been my experience.

The firnware upadte 1:30 was released in January, so you likely have it.

Here's the quote, from the update description, which deals with blending the Dexterized signal with the raw pickup signal.

"Blend control. For newly created WaveMaps, character adjustments CH2, CH1, and CH0 are accessible in the right half of CHARACTER knob rotation. When operating in the left half of its rotation, the control allows blending 0% to 70% of the raw pickup signal with 100% to 30% of the WaveMap. The raw pickup signal is polarity and time aligned with the WaveMap so that no comb filtering or weirdness occurs. For existing (legacy) WaveMaps, the blend control works as before with CH0, CH1, CH2 spanning the full rotation range."