Anyone tried a Coles 4038?

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by AcousticDreams

Other than one being stereo and the other mono, What would you say are the sonic differences between the R84 & the R88?

Frequency response chart shows them relatively similar.

The R88 is just 2 R84s in one housing. That's why they seem so similar. It's the same element. The only differences come from the larger housing & the physical characteristics of that.

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

The R88 is just 2 R84s in one housing. That's why they seem so similar. It's the same element. The only differences come from the larger housing & the physical characteristics of that.

So interesting because I've read that before and they still sounded different to me or at least made different impressions. I could certainly be remembering them inaccurately or have done comparisons out of context, etc.; I'm sure I don't remember tracking a lot of vocals with the R88. I'm at least confident to say that I love them all. :-)!

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by kellyb

So interesting because I've read that before and they still sounded different to me or at least made different impressions. I could certainly be remembering them inaccurately or have done comparisons out of context, etc.; I'm sure I don't remember tracking a lot of vocals with the R88. I'm at least confident to say that I love them all. :-)!

At the studio we have an R88 & 2 R84s, I've used them side by side & they are nearly identical. The larger housing of the R88 does change the headbasket resonance a little, but it's just a little.

[guitarman68]

I have a Coles 4038 in my mic collection and tried but never used it on my guitars, mandolins, slide, banjos. I read that Chris Thile uses it on one of his Loars, the one that sounds a bit brighter.

I use it when musicians bring some thin sounding guitars, mandolins, banjo to recording.
I use it on upright bass through a Universal Audio 6176 preamp channel strip with good results, but only when micing the bass with only one microphone.
I use it on saxophones, English horn, violins and cello. On Cello I combine it with two SDCs which are positioned in A/B - configuration.
And I use on vocals that seem to need some beefing up.

Yes, it can sound muffled, but it's great to beef up signals that sound thin or have some unpleasant upper mids / high frequency content.
And it takes EQ very well.

Here is a comparison I did five years ago: five LDC and the Coles 4038 on a rosewood dread (flat picked):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIaxJMw0ccQ

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by kellyb

So interesting because I've read that before and they still sounded different to me or at least made different impressions. I could certainly be remembering them inaccurately or have done comparisons out of context, etc.; I'm sure I don't remember tracking a lot of vocals with the R88. I'm at least confident to say that I love them all. :-)!

A couple of months ago I talked to a tech Rep At AEA. He said that the 84 and 88 are slightly different. The 84 has an internal pop shield, which rolls off the high end a bit. Also a smaller transducer in 84 than the 88.

KellyB, can you describe what the differences in tone, sound you hear between these two? The 84 could be within my financial reach sometime next year. The 88 not. The tech at AEA seemed to think there was a substantial difference between the two even though the internal differences were small. Possibly it was the size of the transducer he said that made the biggest difference.

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by AcousticDreams

...The 84 has an internal pop shield, which rolls off the high end a bit...can you describe what the differences in tone, sound you hear between these two?

Compared to the R88, the R84 sounding slightly rolled off with a little more proximity effect is about how I remember the difference. I've owned three R84's over the years, and the first time I put up an R88 to record acoustic guitar it sounded slightly more balanced...a more even frequency response top to bottom.

FWIW: As far as the R84 being more in reach financially, I personally wouldn't think twice about what the R88 might have that the R84 doesn't. Not only do I probably prefer the R84's fundamental sound (it's a big, classic sounding mic!), but either of them are likely to require a little high passing/EQ if, for example, traditionally placed in front of most 00/000 and larger sized acoustic guitars.

If I was choosing between the R84 and the slightly more balanced AEA ribbons, whether or not it was going to pull vocal duty would be the deciding factor for me. If so, I'd get the R84 and never look back. It behaves like a vocal mic when you sing into it...that proximity effect is wonderful and the mic will sing back at you.

If buying for only for instrumental recording, or if you want the absolute most accurate sounding option, I'd take a hard look at either the R92, which was designed as a spot/instrument mic to feature less proximity effect (bass), or (my preference) the N8 which shares the same design philosophy as the R88. Both are obviously mono mics and might be in your reach?

Honestly, I don't think there's a wrong choice to be made between the AEA mics. Any of them can be wonderful vocal or instrument mics. All of the AEAs I've had are just super classy sounding mics that don't have or earn a rep for being overly dark. Adding a TRP preamp to the mix only doubles down on all that, too IMO. Just beautiful natural ribbon sounds that don't scream RIBBON.

While I love 4038s for what they are, any of the AEAs mentioned would IMO be more practical choices because they not as prominently characterful. The 4038 has a LOT of vibe, and if it's your main or only mic, that color is going to stack up on multiple tracks/overdubs/etc...you may not like how it stacks on itself. And FWIW, my experience with them is that they are not patently "dark" mics. They just capture a lot of low and mid frequency content..like most ribbons, but when you wipe that away with eq (that any of these mics takes very well IME), what's left certainly doesn't lack presence or detail. I mean they're broadcast mics! You won't find a lot of engineers using them on everything because either they have a more suitable mic for the source, or because the 4038s have a prominent signature - not because they're dark.

The AEA stuff on the other hand...have you seen the all AEA mic sessions with California Honeydrops? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMnT...rniaHoneydrops. Oh, and check out John Cuniberti's "One Mic" series where he records an entire band with one R88 or one R84...super cool stuff!: http://www.johncuniberti.com/onemic/

And re: dark, consider that the original RCA R44 was designed to mic stages, so the bass response doesn't start falling off until it's SIX FEET from the source and increases the closer you get from there. So yes, if you're placing it 9 inches from a guitar or a voice, you can bet it's going to sound DARK....so either plan to EQ it or move back another foot and a half. IMO, that's what makes these mics so fun and so capable...you can use them creatively in ways that you can't a simple condenser mic. Want to record a duo? Put the mic between them, and/or a few feet out in front. So many options.

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by kellyb

Compared to the R88, the R84 sounding slightly rolled off with a little more proximity effect is about how I remember the difference. I've owned three R84's over the years, and the first time I put up an R88 to record acoustic guitar it sounded slightly more balanced...a more even frequency response top to bottom.

FWIW: As far as the R84 being more in reach financially, I personally wouldn't think twice about what the R88 might have that the R84 doesn't. Not only do I probably prefer the R84's fundamental sound (it's a big, classic sounding mic!), but either of them are likely to require a little high passing/EQ if, for example, traditionally placed in front of most 00/000 and larger sized acoustic guitars.

If I was choosing between the R84 and the slightly more balanced AEA ribbons, whether or not it was going to pull vocal duty would be the deciding factor for me. If so, I'd get the R84 and never look back. It behaves like a vocal mic when you sing into it...that proximity effect is wonderful and the mic will sing back at you.

If buying for only for instrumental recording, or if you want the absolute most accurate sounding option, I'd take a hard look at either the R92, which was designed as a spot/instrument mic to feature less proximity effect (bass), or (my preference) the N8 which shares the same design philosophy as the R88. Both are obviously mono mics and might be in your reach?

Honestly, I don't think there's a wrong choice to be made between the AEA mics. Any of them can be wonderful vocal or instrument mics. All of the AEAs I've had are just super classy sounding mics that don't have or earn a rep for being overly dark. Adding a TRP preamp to the mix only doubles down on all that, too IMO. Just beautiful natural ribbon sounds that don't scream RIBBON.

While I love 4038s for what they are, any of the AEAs mentioned would IMO be more practical choices because they not as prominently characterful. The 4038 has a LOT of vibe, and if it's your main or only mic, that color is going to stack up on multiple tracks/overdubs/etc...you may not like how it stacks on itself. And FWIW, my experience with them is that they are not patently "dark" mics. They just capture a lot of low and mid frequency content..like most ribbons, but when you wipe that away with eq (that any of these mics takes very well IME), what's left certainly doesn't lack presence or detail. I mean they're broadcast mics! You won't find a lot of engineers using them on everything because either they have a more suitable mic for the source, or because the 4038s have a prominent signature - not because they're dark.

The AEA stuff on the other hand...have you seen the all AEA mic sessions with California Honeydrops? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMnT...rniaHoneydrops. Oh, and check out John Cuniberti's "One Mic" series where he records an entire band with one R88 or one R84...super cool stuff!: http://www.johncuniberti.com/onemic/

And re: dark, consider that the original RCA R44 was designed to mic stages, so the bass response doesn't start falling off until it's SIX FEET from the source and increases the closer you get from there. So yes, if you're placing it 9 inches from a guitar or a voice, you can bet it's going to sound DARK....so either plan to EQ it or move back another foot and a half. IMO, that's what makes these mics so fun and so capable...you can use them creatively in ways that you can't a simple condenser mic. Want to record a duo? Put the mic between them, and/or a few feet out in front. So many options.

Thanks so much kellyB for the in depth report. Very helpful!

Doug's recording using the 88 is entrancing. So beautiful. However, I have put the big halt to my ribbon desires( several unexpected bills).I have decided to be happy with what I got. In fact...one of the reasons why I chose the Schoeps wide cardiod 621's is for it slightly more open sound. It won't give me what the Ribbons do...but it will give me some of of that openness. Combined with my Beesneez 67 I am sure I will get the combination of openness and solidness that I am seeking.

Ah, if only I could win the lotto...a million more mics, and two million more guitars. But honestly...and I very happy with what I have. It is of course the unfortunately nature of us mortals to always want more.

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by kellyb

Compared to the R88, the R84 sounding slightly rolled off with a little more proximity effect is about how I remember the difference. I've owned three R84's over the years, and the first time I put up an R88 to record acoustic guitar it sounded slightly more balanced...a more even frequency response top to bottom.

FWIW: As far as the R84 being more in reach financially, I personally wouldn't think twice about what the R88 might have that the R84 doesn't. Not only do I probably prefer the R84's fundamental sound (it's a big, classic sounding mic!), but either of them are likely to require a little high passing/EQ if, for example, traditionally placed in front of most 00/000 and larger sized acoustic guitars.

If I was choosing between the R84 and the slightly more balanced AEA ribbons, whether or not it was going to pull vocal duty would be the deciding factor for me. If so, I'd get the R84 and never look back. It behaves like a vocal mic when you sing into it...that proximity effect is wonderful and the mic will sing back at you.

If buying for only for instrumental recording, or if you want the absolute most accurate sounding option, I'd take a hard look at either the R92, which was designed as a spot/instrument mic to feature less proximity effect (bass), or (my preference) the N8 which shares the same design philosophy as the R88. Both are obviously mono mics and might be in your reach?

Honestly, I don't think there's a wrong choice to be made between the AEA mics. Any of them can be wonderful vocal or instrument mics. All of the AEAs I've had are just super classy sounding mics that don't have or earn a rep for being overly dark. Adding a TRP preamp to the mix only doubles down on all that, too IMO. Just beautiful natural ribbon sounds that don't scream RIBBON.

While I love 4038s for what they are, any of the AEAs mentioned would IMO be more practical choices because they not as prominently characterful. The 4038 has a LOT of vibe, and if it's your main or only mic, that color is going to stack up on multiple tracks/overdubs/etc...you may not like how it stacks on itself. And FWIW, my experience with them is that they are not patently "dark" mics. They just capture a lot of low and mid frequency content..like most ribbons, but when you wipe that away with eq (that any of these mics takes very well IME), what's left certainly doesn't lack presence or detail. I mean they're broadcast mics! You won't find a lot of engineers using them on everything because either they have a more suitable mic for the source, or because the 4038s have a prominent signature - not because they're dark.

The AEA stuff on the other hand...have you seen the all AEA mic sessions with California Honeydrops? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMnT...rniaHoneydrops. Oh, and check out John Cuniberti's "One Mic" series where he records an entire band with one R88 or one R84...super cool stuff!: http://www.johncuniberti.com/onemic/

And re: dark, consider that the original RCA R44 was designed to mic stages, so the bass response doesn't start falling off until it's SIX FEET from the source and increases the closer you get from there. So yes, if you're placing it 9 inches from a guitar or a voice, you can bet it's going to sound DARK....so either plan to EQ it or move back another foot and a half. IMO, that's what makes these mics so fun and so capable...you can use them creatively in ways that you can't a simple condenser mic. Want to record a duo? Put the mic between them, and/or a few feet out in front. So many options.

I think what you're hearing as "brighter" is the slightly less low-mid bloom of R88 as compared to the R84. I use them together all the time and, unless you're right on top of the R88, it's quite tame, though a little less weighty than the R84.

Another thing I will point out, the active version sound different (brighter) than the passive versions. We considered swapping out our passive versions for the active, but when testing them side by side, we preferred the passive.

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

I think what you're hearing as "brighter" is the slightly less low-mid bloom of R88 as compared to the R84. I use them together all the time and, unless you're right on top of the R88, it's quite tame, though a little less weighty than the R84.

I didn't say brighter, but I did a poor job describing what you did so well right there! That low mid bloom! Also, 100% on "being right up on it." The R88 pretty much needed nothing as a drum overhead mic. In the same role, the R44 and 4038's aren't quite so tailored and typically need a little low mid cut, but it's quick work.

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

Another thing I will point out, the active version sound different (brighter) than the passive versions. We considered swapping out our passive versions for the active, but when testing them side by side, we preferred the passive.

I had the active one for awhile, sold it, and then borrowed a passive version to finish a project, and I preferred it as well. It seemed to have different transient/headroom behavior that sounded a little more honest.

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by AcousticDreams

Thanks so much kellyB for the in depth report. Very helpful!

I have decided to be happy with what I got. In fact...one of the reasons why I chose the Schoeps wide cardiod 621's is for it slightly more open sound. It won't give me what the Ribbons do...but it will give me some of of that openness. Combined with my Beesneez 67 I am sure I will get the combination of openness and solidness that I am seeking.

Ah, if only I could win the lotto...a million more mics, and two million more guitars. But honestly...and I very happy with what I have. It is of course the unfortunately nature of us mortals to always want more.

OHHH, you have wonderful stuff already! I've never used either of those and have wanted to!

Re: happy with what you have, the lotto, etc...I couldn't agree more. I've had a good middle aged run springing for some mics and instruments and gear since Covid...I decided to spend the money to get what I wanted (at least once!)...and now that I've settled into what I need and use, the rest of it will go, and it'll be a relief. Maybe it's just because I'm not rich, but I don't like having valuable music stuff sitting around that I don't use. I'm glad I'm not into things like $7k electric mountain bikes that'll be worth nothing in 5 years, but still. :-)

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by kellyb

I didn't say brighter, but I did a poor job describing what you did so well right there! That low mid bloom! Also, 100% on "being right up on it." The R88 pretty much needed nothing as a drum overhead mic. In the same role, the R44 and 4038's aren't quite so tailored and typically need a little low mid cut, but it's quick work.

I do that all the time, sometimes you forget no one knows what you're thinking, while your typing But we also can't discount the whole "talking about sound is like dancing about architecture" paradox. It's hard to convey what we hear, and how we experience sound. with just words.

And yes, a couple EQ moves really negates a lot of the response differences in these mics, making it mostly a moot point. In fact, a good EQ with any mic can help make things a lot better.

I love the R88 as a stereo room mic, usually about 15' back in the room...smashed through either a Diode Bridge type compressor (I've been using the AudioScape D-Comp recently). It makes me smile

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by kellyb

I had the active one for awhile, sold it, and then borrowed a passive version to finish a project, and I preferred it as well. It seemed to have different transient/headroom behavior that sounded a little more honest.

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

Another thing I will point out, the active version sound different (brighter) than the passive versions. We considered swapping out our passive versions for the active, but when testing them side by side, we preferred the passive.

From the demos I have heard...the active takes away much of the lush characteristics that I love about a Ribbon. Active versions begin to sound like a condenser to me.

Yet there those who are liking the Active versions better. Even the Tech At AEA said there was a movement towards the Active.

In this comparison between the 88 and the 88A....It is quite obvious the differences. Yet, the author of the video likes the Active version.

I was set to buy a 84A. Basically it would save me from having to get another preamp. But when I heard this and other comparisons, it immediately became a no go.

[kellyb]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

...sometimes you forget no one knows what you're thinking, while your typing But we also can't discount the whole "talking about sound is like dancing about architecture" paradox. It's hard to convey what we hear, and how we experience sound. with just words.

And yes, a couple EQ moves really negates a lot of the response differences in these mics...good EQ with any mic can help make things a lot better.

Couldn't agree more, and on all points! :-)

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

I love the R88 as a stereo room mic, usually about 15' back in the room...smashed through either a Diode Bridge type compressor (I've been using the AudioScape D-Comp recently). It makes me smile

Interesting!...a pal (and great engineer!) mentioned the AudioScape D-comp last night. I need to give it a whirl.

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by kellyb

Interesting!...a pal (and great engineer!) mentioned the AudioScape D-comp last night. I need to give it a whirl.

I don't think I would have bought one myself, but the studio owner got it & I've been really impressed. It does that Neve thing really well. It's so hard to know who is doing justice to the products with all these "me too" clones on the market.