recording two guitarists/singers

[BKinBWa]

Question:
What would be the easiest (and cheapest) way to record two guitarist/singers at the same time. In a home. Casual. Both acoustic steel strings, no pickups. I am looking for microphone types and placement, monitor suggestions, levels, etc. Also your experiences, successes, failures, etc. What works and what doesn't? Pitfalls to avoid...
I have a Zoom H4n Pro and would like to be able to use it, unless someone can suggest something else. Audacity for a DAW. Cheaper is better, of course. I’d like to keep it under $1,000.

If this has been previously addressed, please direct me to the relevant thread.
Thank you.
-BK in BWA

[Doug Young]

I'm sure you'll get lots of suggestions, but here's a few thoughts. As always, room acoustics matter. But assuming the room you're recording them in is ok, it could be as simple as setting up a stereo pair of mics (or just using your Zoom builtin mics). Here's an interesting example from the One Mic series

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af8pTJCpljU

This uses a figure eight mic, so it's picking up both sides.

Here's Fran Guidry recording two guitarists, both facing front, with basically a mic in front of each:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaQADpo2zy4

This is just Fran's living room, I believe, so not a treated studio space.

Here's another setup with Fran, using a stereo mic (just cardiod, so like having 2 mics in XY, I think):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIjqZO200CU

All of the above approaches assume that the players can balance themselves and that you don't need to edit.

Other options are close micing each guitar and having vocal mics for each. You'll get bleed, but you can at least do some balancing when you mix.

The extreme option is to record each part separately - start with one guitar, then over dub the other, then overdub vocal 1, then vocal 2 (order doesn't matter). That offers total control, the ability to edit, mix, add effects to one part without affecting the others. More professional in the end, but more work, and maybe more foreign-feeling for the performers.

[keith.rogers]

If they both play and sing it can complicate things if they don't balance naturally. The first thing to do is simply have them separated reasonably and stand about where you would might record from and see how it sounds. If it's balanced and they know how to back off their playing while singing, then you could simply try recording with the Zoom's XY and see how it sounds.

I'd work with that XY placement - up, down, left right, closer, farther, etc. to really get a feel for its possibilities and limits, assuming you have time.

I.e., you've got to start by experimenting, and it will depend on what you're able to control by instruction ("sing/play a bit softer/louder here and there...") and mic (Zoom) placement, to decide what to do next.

After that, since you've got 2 additional inputs on the H4, you could add mics to place or aim up or down to help balance an individual's vocal vs. guitar output, if they can't get it under control "naturally." The kind of mic you choose will depend on budget and what else you might think you want to do. A couple dynamic mics might be all you'd need. If you want to make the external mics the primary sound collector, e.g., the room doesn't work well enough for a semi-distant capture with the Zoom XY, then you might want a couple LDCs.

Everyone has their favorites for mics. For a first shot, if you can simply borrow a couple mics to use to "fix" weaknesses on either side, I'd start there.

E.g, then I'd add a mic on each player - depends on the room and what you want to balance but it could be something relatively affordable like a pair of SDC condensers or even small dynamics in the SM57 style, especially if you're trying to video-record this. You could aim those up or down to get more of the guitar/voice as needed on a performer. Keep in mind you'll have a lot of bleed so be fairly limited in what you can do to a specific thing like a single voice or guitar, at least without getting into more complex plugins.

If the x-y isn't cutting it because of room, I'd say a pair of LDCs might be considered, but believe me, a single mic recording of one guitar+vocal is hard enough using a type of mic that picks up *everything*. Add bleed from a 2nd and a room that might be less than ideal, and it doesn't get easier.

Good luck.

[Brent Hahn]

I'm going to assume that 1. You're one of the participants and 2. You don't want to drive your counterpart nuts while you fiddle around getting things up and running.

I'd set the two of you up facing each other maybe 6 feet apart in the middle of the room, not near any walls or windows or corners. 4 small cardioid mics, all the same whether they're dynamic or condenser. One on each vocal, angled up from slightly below the face to help with both audio separation and eye contact; one about a foot out from the neck/body join of each guitar and angled down toward the guitar at about a 45º angle, again to help with separation.

One mic for each channel of your Zoom. Do a quick test to make sure it's working and your levels are good and there's nothing horribly wrong (like one guitar way more tinny or boomy than the other) and off you go.

Then edit and mix and make a list of the things you'll do different next time at your leisure, while your partner is off somewhere else, untraumatized by the experience and possibly willing to repeat it.

[phcorrigan]

Originally Posted by BKinBWa

What would be the easiest (and cheapest) way to record two guitarist/singers at the same time.

I think Doug Young covered your options pretty well.

Originally Posted by BKinBWa

I have a Zoom H4n Pro and would like to be able to use it...

I have seen some great videos of young musicians like Joshua Lee Turner and Carson McKee recording duets with a Zoom H4n.

Originally Posted by BKinBWa

Audacity for a DAW.

Audacity is great for certain types of recording, but IMO it's not the best tool for this purpose. Bandcamp Cakewalk is a free DAW, and there is a free version of Tracktion Waveform as well. Also consider Reaper, which isn't free (it's only $60), but is free to try. It will just continue to nag you to buy it (which you should) when you start it.

[keith.rogers]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

I'm going to assume that 1. You're one of the participants and 2. You don't want to drive your counterpart nuts while you fiddle around getting things up and running.

I'd set the two of you up facing each other maybe 6 feet apart in the middle of the room, not near any walls or windows or corners. 4 small cardioid mics, all the same whether they're dynamic or condenser. One on each vocal, angled up from slightly below the face to help with both audio separation and eye contact; one about a foot out from the neck/body join of each guitar and angled down toward the guitar at about a 45º angle, again to help with separation.

One mic for each channel of your Zoom. Do a quick test to make sure it's working and your levels are good and there's nothing horribly wrong (like one guitar way more tinny or boomy than the other) and off you go.

Then edit and mix and make a list of the things you'll do different next time at your leisure, while your partner is off somewhere else, untraumatized by the experience and possibly willing to repeat it.

The Zoom H4n Pro has only 2 XLR inputs, so 4 mics, i.e., not using its built-in XY (does not have the replaceable capsule like the H5 to add additional XLRs) means adding an audio interface to the budget for the OP.

If OP is adding a 4 channel interface, plus 4 mics, The Behringer UMC404HD is the most budget friendly. Add 4 boom mic stands, a couple of dynamic mics for vocals, maybe something like the Sennheiser e835s, and then see what budget is left for guitar mics. Maybe a pair of RODE m5s, though it really depends what OP is planning to do in the future.

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by keith.rogers

The Zoom H4n Pro has only 2 XLR inputs, so 4 mics, i.e., not using its built-in XY (does not have the replaceable capsule like the H5 to add additional XLRs) means adding an audio interface to the budget for the OP.

That's true. But here's a thought. Making a short story long, I have both an Apogee One and and an H4n, and with the Apogee you can use an XLR/TS adapter (with or without outboard phantom) to turn the "instrument" input into a mic input, and it sounds great. Just a slightly different gain structure. So I bet you could do the same thing with the Zoom. If I can find my Zoom, Lord knows where it is, I'll try it.

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by BKinBWa

Question:
What would be the easiest (and cheapest) way to record two guitarist/singers at the same time. In a home. Casual. Both acoustic steel strings, no pickups. I am looking for microphone types and placement, monitor suggestions, levels, etc. Also your experiences, successes, failures, etc. What works and what doesn't? Pitfalls to avoid...
I have a Zoom H4n Pro and would like to be able to use it, unless someone can suggest something else. Audacity for a DAW. Cheaper is better, of course. I’d like to keep it under $1,000.

If this has been previously addressed, please direct me to the relevant thread.
Thank you.
-BK in BWA

That first video Doug posted demonstrates the technique I think of as "miking the space" vs "miking the instrument(s)/vocal(s)." The clip with Mike Kaawa is similar in concept. I've done lots of instrumental duets with a Zoom H6 and nothing more. As keith.rogers suggests, use the H4n attached mics. Adjust the relative positions and the performance until you get a satisfactory result.

Another Keith who goes by "kego" has some wonderful duet stuff and it's all captured on a phone:



If your outdoors is quiet enough recording outside is a way to solve "small room sound" problems.

Fran

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

If your outdoors is quiet enough recording outside is a way to solve "small room sound" problems.

This outdoor setting absolutely isn't quiet enough -- birds, bugs, golden retriever -- and the recording is pretty raw and raunchy, but I think you'll agree the "acoustic treatment" is really good.

Steve Wagner's backyard

[BKinBWa]

Excellent advice and suggestions, all. We'll start off with the zoom by itself and see how it goes. I think we should both have headphones, but the zoom only has one jack. Any suggestions or work arounds? I'll be playing and singing and my partner's wife will be doing the recording, so maybe three headsets?
I see a rabbit hole up ahead...
-BK in BWA

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by BKinBWa

Excellent advice and suggestions, all. We'll start off with the zoom by itself and see how it goes. I think we should both have headphones, but the zoom only has one jack. Any suggestions or work arounds? I'll be playing and singing and my partner's wife will be doing the recording, so maybe three headsets?
I see a rabbit hole up ahead...
-BK in BWA

Why would you need headphones? I'd just record it naturally, and make sure you're balancing yourselves acoustically. There are headphone amplifiers/splitters, but I wouldn't bother. Have your partner's wife listening thru a good set of closed heaphones, so she's isolated from you, and she can just monitor whether it's sounding ok.

[BKinBWa]

Yes, of course. I'm just used to recording myself by myself, listening with headphones. No need to complicate matters any more than necessary.
-BK in BWA

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by BKinBWa

Yes, of course. I'm just used to recording myself by myself, listening with headphones. No need to complicate matters any more than necessary.
-BK in BWA

Comes down to personal preference of course, but there's a bit of a difference between recording one person with headphones and multiple people. As soon as you have multiple people involved, you get into the whole "more me" issue where you want your own mix, and the other player(s) want their own, and so on. For a solo or duo type recording, I'd approach it as making sure the sound I'm making in the room acoustically is good, but that's just my approach. The only time I wear headphones while tracking is if I'm playing to a click track or overdubbing.

[BKinBWa]

Okay, then, another question. Playback. Neither the Zoom nor the iPhone has anything approaching a decent speaker. We would like to be able to hear (all of us, at the same time) what has been recorded with some fidelity, immediately after recording.
Can you recommend an inexpensive speaker/monitor system?
BK in BWA

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by BKinBWa

Okay, then, another question. Playback. Neither the Zoom nor the iPhone has anything approaching a decent speaker. We would like to be able to hear (all of us, at the same time) what has been recorded with some fidelity, immediately after recording.
Can you recommend an inexpensive speaker/monitor system?
BK in BWA

Do you have playback/speakers on your computer? Pull the SD card out of the zoom, plug it into the computer, click on the file to play.

Or get an 1/8 inch to dual RCA cable, and plug the zoom into your stereo system.