Any Advice on Portable Line Array PAs? (BOSE, etc)

[Wyllys]

The RCF Evox is a cut above the prevalent "hobbyist" stuff for sure.

For anyone considering the DIY approach, the easiest way is to look for a pair of EV or University Audio "Line Radiators" from a few decades back, the most ubiquitous column speaker ever made. It is very easy to simply add an off the shelf amp module in one of the columns to power the pair. You'll have essentially the performance of the typical Bose/Eon/Turbosound/whatever for a couple of hundred bucks. Add a small powered sub and go to town.

http://www.electrovoice.com/download...LR4B%20EDS.pdf

Yes, you'll have to add a small mixer, but that's hardly a concern as I've yet to see any of the package PA's built-in mixers that were worth anything at all. They ALL need an actual, fully functional mixer to approach practical usefulness.
This includes he ToneMatch...

Evox is the only one I've yet experienced that I would add to the inventory of my business. Above that, you're talking SERIOUS money for the steerable arrays from RH and a few others. Serious as in 10x-15x the money.

[TheShadowKnows]

Originally Posted by Paultergeist

Wow, first, I really appreciate you taking the time to post this data. This type of analysis can be very insightful. I would love to see some similar data for the Bose systems, and compared to a traditional PA speaker.

I must point out, however, some challenges in comparing the JBL Eon One against -- for example -- the Maui 5 based on these graphs:

The JBL is measured at 0, 15, 30 40, 50 and 65 degrees off-center axis.

The Maui is measured at 0, 30, 60 and 90 degrees off-center axis.

The vertical axis of JBL graph extend from -28 dB to +16 dB.

The vertical axis of Maui graph extend from -15dB to +10 dB.

In addition, the Maui is evaluated across a wider frequency range.

I DO THINK THIS IS ALL VERY GOOD INFORMATION, and can be useful in understanding the performance of these products. it is also rather easy, however, for someone to become misled by just glancing at the two graphs as a comparison -- as there are significant differences between the measurement angles and scales of these two graphs. My observation.

Thanks again for taking the time to post these, Cuki.

I love specs as much as the next guy. It really helps me get closer to making a decision on buying, which means forking out a chunk of dough, which I hesitate to do. But... there's no replacing the 'plug your guitar in & try it out' test. That's how I made the choice & spent a grand on the JBL Eon 1 over the Bose L1C or Harbiner array. The bottom line for me / my testing was that the Eon 1 made ANY guitar (or image) I plugging into it sound great. And I have 10 mouths to feed.

It would be great to have 1 or 2 big box stores near by that would carry all the arrays we want to test. Unfortunately, it's not always that way. So we rely on our buddies here to help us out in making our purchase decisions, of which I am very grateful for.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by TheShadowKnows

If you're by yourself, I'm sure you've heard of the DBX GoRack for a mixer. For 30 clams you get 2 XLR/1/4" in's, EQ, Comp, Feedback Killer, Sub & 2 XLR outs & a BIG master volume knob! I bought 2 of them (1 for backup) & the FB Killer is fantastic. Just set & forget. If you need more inputs a Soundcraft desk is another good reasonably priced option.

I see that you purchased the Eon One. That GoRack exactly what I had in mind when I mentioned DSP for the JBL. The anti feedback control on my line 6 is outstanding. And, I really don't ever want to use a system without it again. That's a nice portable way to add it. Let us know how that solution is working out for you.

[patriot]

Quote- The Bose Compact uses a flat vertical array. But the larger units use their "articulated array" which you'll discover is each speaker at a slight angular offset in different directions. Quote

I have an L1 Compact. the speakers are aimed in different directions at different angles. However there is only 6 speakers instead of the twelve that come with the L1 and L2.
I also find I have to cut the mids with both my Taylor acoustic and my 335.
Also the Fishman SA220 is discontinued if I recall.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

I've thought about it a lot but then you are dependent on your tablet (App, Os, battery, availability...) and you get less clean gain too (high Z input).



So I kept things analog and simple with the ZED10FX. I already have a analog/digital and digital/analog conversion on the path with my Impulse Response pedal, I did not want to add extra digital conversion stage.



Cuki

Cuki,

I ended up trading my speaker and analog mixer this weekend at Guitar Center. I went in to buy a Bose L1 unit, and walked out with the Harbinger MLS 800 and most of my money. :-). I was VERY surprised how good the Harbinger sounded compared to the other compact systems.

Since I'm not playing noisy bars any more, I won't need the power of a professional Bose L1 M2 system, or even the lower priced JBL Eon One. I also found the JBL a little hard to control.

The 10" woofer in the JBL is pretty loud and quick to feedback. With the line setting, there isn't enough gain for a guitar pickup. With the mic setting, it's too hot. A few folks are using the DBX goRack to combat feedback with the JBL. The smaller speaker in the Bose L1C and MLS800 don't feedback unless the gain is out of whack.

As a side note, our mixer discussion got me curious about the digital XR12 Air mixer for our folk club. I found one cheap and ordered it. I'm curious to see if the effects are as good as my Play Acoustic. The manual has a dizzying number of studio quality effects listed. If they work, all the vocalists will benefit from the de-esser, reverb, para EQ, and doubler. They evidently have acoustic and electric guitar effects, including the sans amp well. Nifty for $250 retail! Frankly, I'm not sure how the do it. It also appears this unit is OEMed by Midas or vice versa. Midas is selling the same unit with their branding for $100 more.

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[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

Cuki,
It also appears this unit is OEMed by Midas or vice versa. Midas is selling the same unit with their branding for $100 more.

Midas was bought by Music-Group (Behringer) few years ago. The XR has benefited from som discussion between the Behringer and Midas team, but the XR12 is not a Midas mixer. The new Midas MR series should be designed by Midas as far as the preamp are concerned. The DSP program seems to be the same. I would definitely try those, if was not sure that I would end fighting with my kids for the ipad...

I am glad you've found a PA that suits your need. I bet, the Harbinger is less DSP corrected and is designed to sound flat whereas the JBL has a bit of a mid cut to sound better at higher sound pressure level (see Fletcher and Munson).

If you look carefully to all the reviews I've sent you (from sonomag), most of them have bass boost and treble boost... You'd never get those spectra on a monitoring speaker (nearfield speakers). So I guess PA speaker are tuned to sound good "loud" and must then be designed to sound best at a specific SPL.

My 2 cents,
Cuki

PS: TheShadowKnows has given us a great review of the Harbinger with a comparison with both Bose L1C and JBL eon one. What stroke me was his feeling that the low and mids-high where handled separatly. I had the exact same feeling on the L1C and that's why I used to have a L1 mII. As the crossover frequency is 200 Hz a whole part of the fundamental frequencies from both guitars and vocals radiate from the ground... I did not like that. In my opinion using a 400Hz crossover frequency is one of the best feature of the JBL eon one (common to the L1 mII) .... But I did not try one yet. One good thing to try with a compact line array, is to check the distance at which the sound starts to be even. Can you give us some feedback about that for the harbinger?

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

Midas was bought by Music-Group (Behringer) few years ago. The XR has benefited from som discussion between the Behringer and Midas team, but the XR12 is not a Midas mixer. The new Midas MR series should be designed by Midas as far as the preamp are concerned. The DSP program seems to be the same. I would definitely try those, if was not sure that I would end fighting with my kids for the ipad...

I am glad you've found a PA that suits your need. I bet, the Harbinger is less DSP corrected and is designed to sound flat whereas the JBL has a bit of a mid cut to sound better at higher sound pressure level (see Fletcher and Munson).

If you look carefully to all the reviews I've sent you (from sonomag), most of them have bass boost and treble boost... You'd never get those spectra on a monitoring speaker (nearfield speakers). So I guess PA speaker are tuned to sound good "loud" and must then be designed to sound best at a specific SPL.

My 2 cents,
Cuki

PS: TheShadowKnows has given us a great review of the Harbinger with a comparison with both Bose L1C and JBL eon one. What stroke me was his feeling that the low and mids-high where handled separatly. I had the exact same feeling on the L1C and that's why I used to have a L1 mII. As the crossover frequency is 200 Hz a whole part of the fundamental frequencies from both guitars and vocals radiate from the ground... I did not like that. In my opinion using a 400Hz crossover frequency is one of the best feature of the JBL eon one (common to the L1 mII) .... But I did not try one yet. One good thing to try with a compact line array, is to check the distance at which the sound starts to be even. Can you give us some feedback about that for the harbinger?

Hi Cuki,

I know what you mean about the kids and the iPad. Fortunately, I have my own for work. Our school system issues each kid an iPad in Kindergarten. We just keep them locked down like Ft. Knox.

This is the unit I was referring to. It appears to be an exact replica of the XR12, with different branding, and $100 higher price tag. If I had to guess, I'd say Midas designed it. They use the same mic preamps.

Edit: you're correct. The Midas Pro preamps are, evidently, a step up. Though, who knows? Otherwise, the DSP appears to be the same.

As far as the nuances of the sound from the Harbinger versus the Bose L1C, I'll have to admit that they sounded mostly the same to me. The reality is that for less than $1000, you cannot have it all. Even the $3,000 systems have compromises. As you astutely pointed out (thank you again for all the reviews, BTW), every one of these style systems has (more or less) the same hole. And, I suspect it's voiced for moderate volume, like the loudness function on a stereo.

I had the PA department to myself that morning with guitar and vocal mic. They told me to go pick out a guitar (I grabbed a Taylor 814ce w/ES2) and he setup an SM58 for me, closed the door and let me play and sing. All three (MLS800, L1C, and Eon One) sounded great. I also played in double drop D to get a feel for the bass. The Eon had bigger bass than either of the other two. The MLS came in second place. There is no EQ on the Bose, so you get what you get, and you don't get upset. The preamps on the Harbinger sound musical and have the PROPER gain staging for their listed purposes. (Hint hint JBL)

The issue that surprised me the most was feedback resistance. The Bose and MLS800 were equally good in that regard. The JBL, with more power and low end, was very sensitive to guitar feedback. I don't know if I would be able to put it behind me like the Bose L1, or MLS800. At least, I couldn't during my test.

I did my testing facing, and with my back to, all three systems and they were right next to each other. To my ears, the Harbinger actually sounded cleaner than the L1C. But, I'm sure someone could come to the exact opposite conclusion based on their ears and the room characteristics. The room is 25 feet deep and they all sounded good with break music from my phone at that distance.

In the end, price, the three distinct channels, with 2 XLRs and some basic EQ, and bluetooth made it an easy decision for me. All three are made of plastic. The plastic connections on the Bose and the JBL would be much better at repeated setup and tear downs. The Harbinger MLS800 is not so road worthy in that respect. But, I am no longer a road warrior.

[Cuki79]

Thanks Martingitdave for taking the time to give us a detailed feedback.

I think JBL should have better set the gain in the line input and add a low cut filter. I think it is one of the criticism of the magazine... They did not mention feedback but definitely said a low cut was missing.

In my case this is something I can easily dial in since I use a lr baggs lyric with a custom impulse response in a convolution pedal. All the low end is created by the pedal, I can tune it to my taste.

For me it's the low mid range that I need. I felt the Bose L1c sounded a bit cold and metallic as far as my voice is concerned... I wish the jbl could solve that (I don't think we have harbinger in europe)

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

Thanks Martingitdave for taking the time to give us a detailed feedback.



I think JBL should have better set the gain in the line input and add a low cut filter. I think it is one of the criticism of the magazine... They did not mention feedback but definitely said a low cut was missing.



In my case this is something I can easily dial in since I use a lr baggs lyric with a custom impulse response in a convolution pedal. All the low end is created by the pedal, I can tune it to my taste.



For me it's the low mid range that I need. I felt the Bose L1c sounded a bit cold and metallic as far as my voice is concerned... I wish the jbl could solve that (I don't think we have harbinger in europe)

You're welcome. I find it mildly amusing that I came to the same conclusions on the JBL Eon One as a professional audio reviewer. I guess you don't need much talent to write for that publication. :-). In my opinion, the JBL is a better, louder solution. But, I would pair it with a goRack for compression, feedback suppression and EQ. It needs a low cut too. Not sure if the goRack has that function. But, feedback suppression is probably enough.

Without good EQ, the JBL can sound a bit more "muddy" or "tubby" than the Bose or Harbinger.

I'd set the gains (mic/line) on the JBL based on the level of the goRack.

As far as value is concerned, this unit, with the bag is selling here in the states for $1030. Add a goRack, and bunches o' cables, for another $70. And, you've got a gig ready system for $1,100. I paid $590 (only $100 cash, after trade in) for the Harbinger, and it's good enough for my needs. Otherwise, I'd have bought the JBL before the Bose L1C, at the same price.


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[DavidE]

Originally Posted by Stratcat77

I have three friends who all bought the IP2000 and rave about them. One sold his Bose and bought this. Tons of power, has Bluetooth for break music. I'm told Turbosound is a very reputable company overseas?

Anyone else tried one? For the price, I'm very tempted.

I played a gig with a friend who has an ip2000. It put this high end sheen over everything that I did not like. I wonder if it was his settings or the nature of the beast. Another friend just bought one and I'd he noticed the sheen too. He spent a lot of time tweaking it and a friend with sound experience was at his gig and tweaked it a little more live. He thinks he's happy with it, but not 100% yet.

[DavidE]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

The magazine explains the low mid hole this way:

The hole usually occurs around 300 Hz where the wavelength is around 1m and you are close to the crossover between the woofer and the array (the small speakers).

So at this frequency, you will hear sound from the woofer as much as from the array.

As they are separate by at least one meter (the woofer ins on the floor), when you put a microphone on a stand for measurement, depending on the distance to the amp the waves coming from the small speakers array and the subwoofer will not be perfectly in phase.

In the case of the JBL eon one, where the distance between the array and the woofeer can not be adjusted precisely (only one spacer). At 5m the whole was a bit shifted. At 1m the hole is pretty obvious.

The JBL has two spacers and the speakers can be at three different heights.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

You're welcome. I find it mildly amusing that I came to the same conclusions on the JBL Eon One as a professional audio reviewer. I guess you don't need much talent to write for that publication. :-). In my opinion, the JBL is a better, louder solution. But, I would pair it with a goRack for compression, feedback suppression and EQ. It needs a low cut too. Not sure if the goRack has that function. But, feedback suppression is probably enough.

Without good EQ, the JBL can sound a bit more "muddy" or "tubby" than the Bose or Harbinger.

I'd set the gains (mic/line) on the JBL based on the level of the goRack.

As far as value is concerned, this unit, with the bag is selling here in the states for $1030. Add a goRack, and bunches o' cables, for another $70. And, you've got a gig ready system for $1,100. I paid $590 (only $100 cash, after trade in) for the Harbinger, and it's good enough for my needs. Otherwise, I'd have bought the JBL before the Bose L1C, at the same price.


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Updating this thread with my newly found conclusions:

1. The Harbinger is fine for hobbyists. But, I will be returning it. There is a distinct hiss from the column with the gains turned off and nothing plugged it. I confirmed it is not a power quality issue.

2. I ordered the XR12 Air digital mixer. I was able to reverse engineer the TC Play Acoustic pedal that I use. I was able to replicate the vocal tone and vocal effects from the TC unit into presets on the mixer. I also replicated the full BodyRez 1 preset and made a second copy with a 100Hz low end shelf. I figured out the "ambience" setting, which was easier than I expected. Thanks Cuki! They sound good. Really good.

3. Since I will have a credit a GC, I will probably have to purchase my new unit from them. Unless I want a $700 gift certificate. I don't need guitars, and I have the rest of my gear settled.

4. Of the brands they carry, I'm down to two units. The JBL Eon One (surprise surprise... everyone likes it) and the Turbosound iP1000 (the iP200 is too big and heavy for my needs.)

Between the two, the 10" woofer in the JBL looks like a better solution for my use. I don't need the extra SPL from dual 8"s, but the better frequency response from a 10" is attractive. The basic (2) XLR input mixer on the iP1000 looks better than the JBL for use with my mixer. I suppose I can set the JBLs to line, run the channels flat, and be satisfied.

I also like that the JBL built in mixer is more functional than the iP1000, if I just want to plug in and go. The two built in mixers each have a glaring omission. The JBL doesn't seem to have an independent sub control or low cut filter. While the iP1000 solves that issue, they have no individual channel EQ (just a master) and no reverb.

The JBL is lighter and MUCH easier to carry. The cost difference is in material to me. Looks like I'll probably walk out with the JBL tonight or tomorrow. Just have to put the other one back in the boxes! :-)

[JoeInOttawa]

I'm keeping my wallet in my pocket until I hear what you finally decide. I have a duo with a bass player and a Beat Buddy, so I might go ip2000 if you end up with the Turbosound, but otherwise, all your comments apply.

Particularly interested in how they compare to everything else you've listened to -- don't forget to do that!

I look forward to (my wallet) living vicariously through your adventures!

Joe

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by JoeInOttawa

I'm keeping my wallet in my pocket until I hear what you finally decide. I have a duo with a bass player and a Beat Buddy, so I might go ip2000 if you end up with the Turbosound, but otherwise, all your comments apply.



Particularly interested in how they compare to everything else you've listened to -- don't forget to do that!



I look forward to (my wallet) living vicariously through your adventures!



Joe

Ha! I just responded to your PM where I suggested the iP2000 for your application. It has the bass response necessary, and is feedback resistant do to its specific line array design, dedicated sub woofer control and the built in DSP low cut protection.

Great minds....

I think your needs are larger than mine. And, the JBL doesn't have the built in feedback protection you might need. I'm thinking JBL for me and iP2000 for you. There are a few good reviews of the iP2000 online.

I'm surmising that the power is comparable in the JBL and iP units.

EDIT: it appears the Fender Expo (Maui 11) has a 300W RMS (1000W peak) amplifier. That's on par with the JBL and iP2000. I don't know if Max SPLs continuous can be trusted for these systems, or if it even matters anymore. For example:

Fender Expo (Maui 11): 113 dB continuous, 121 dB peak
iP2000: 123 dB (doesn't specify peak or continuous) So, it could be MUCH louder, or just louder. I'm assuming peak and 2dB louder.

I'm not too interested in carrying the 55lb iP2000 sub for my use, but I wouldn't hesitate if I were in your shoes. You would need two, I presume?

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[JoeInOttawa]

I'd be looking at one to replace my two Expos. The issue I have is gain before feedback, otherwise, the Fenders are plenty loud. Gonna have to play with placement until I decide what to do.

Meanwhile, I have used a Bose L1M2, and it was plenty loud before feedback, so who knows. It's all very confusing...



Joe