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  #31  
Old 01-08-2006, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i-doc
modern worship band tunes are meant to attract the young unchurched who don't know the old hymns..

I think we need to understand what worship is and the purpose of it. Worship is not for me, it's for God. If I don't like the worship song, well, too bad, because I'm not the object of the worship. If I am then there is something terribly wrong.

Worship music comes in all styles and genre's. Contemporary to classical to all styles in between. "Like a River Glorious" and "Great is Thy Faithfulness" are meant to inspire the same purpose of worship as "Here I Am to Worship" or any other contemporary worship song. I love the Passion Worship CD's. Yes, they take those songs and add a modern touch, but the song is typically kept true to its original melody and intent.

Hymns are the original "Praise and Worship" music. Hymns are enduring, endearing, and their words speak volumes to the heart of the issue, Praise to God and worship of Him. Taking old Hymns of Faith and arranging them for fingerstyle guitar is one of my favorite ways to play.

Yes, modern contemporary worshp is designed to appeal to the tastes of the modern generation (of which at 44, I consider myself to be). I enjoy modern Praise and Worship music. As a matter of fact, I help with our church Praise Team. But the point is, our job is to lead Praise, not to entertain or be the object of it. If we are there to be entertained then we are there for the wrong puupose and it is our heart that needs to be checked.

Praise and worship is not designed to attract the "unchurched". As unbelievers, they do not know how to Praise and Worship God nor are they able to. Not until a person has "believed with their heart and confessed with their mouth that Jesus is Lord" are they able to have that type of relationship. Though I will admit that many churches use their praise music to attract the unchurched because it is the "honey that attracts the bear". Saturday evening praise services, "Seeker" services etc., all are wonderful evangelistic tools and are extremely effective when done right and for the correct purpose.

However, to say that Praise music "sucks" is an arrogant statement in that it reveals the heart. It shows what we consider to be our purpose for Worship music. To make ourselves feel good. That's not the purpose of Praise and Worship and it should not be the object of our Worship and Praise. If it is then we all need to deal with the pride of our heart.
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Last edited by Nelson; 01-08-2006 at 08:31 AM.
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  #32  
Old 01-08-2006, 08:30 AM
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This subject is so huge.

Thirty years ago when churches basically used one collection of hymns or another, one thing you could say was it worked. Over the centuries, by making repeated mistakes, the church had found a means of worship which may have been bland, boring maddening, or whatever, but you only needed a good pianist or organist to make the system work. People could follow and participate. There was a connection to the church universal in the long tradition of beautiful music. As a cutting edge guy in the Jesus music movement, it drove me crazy. I hated it. But it did work. I wanted to burn all the organs and pianos and replace them with bands. I prayed for it to happen. In concert during the period, I literally played Chuch Girard's song "Rock and Roll Preacher" and included a zorchy electric lead guitar solo.

Beware of what you pray for. You may actually receive it.

What do we have now? A much more complicated, much less universal P&W practice. Guess what? There is no better disproof for the assertion, "Music is the universal language," than the church. We've rediscovered that there is NOTHING in the world more divisive than music style.

We've rediscovered that as people age, they like to hold on to favorite songs for comfort, but when they are young, the same people like new stuff continually. We've rediscovered that if we are going to overtly accomodate one age group, we're probably literally going to alienate or discard some others. We've rediscovered that stylistic compromise is often worse than either extreme. We rediscovered that monophonic music, set to a proper key to accomodate tenors is nearly impossible for a soprano or bass to sing comfortably. We've rediscovered that monophonic music, set to a proper key to accomodate sopranos, is nearly impossible for a tenor or bass to sing comfortably. We've rediscovered that music which is good enough often devolves into "worship-tainment". In our attempt to re-invent the wheel, we've also begun to rediscover that music which is interesting to play may be extremely hard to follow. We've rediscovered that the cure for the fall-out caused by to much innovation usually isn't more innovation. We've rediscovered that leadership driven by passion rather than compassion and reason will often make changes too fast and too far and hurt large blocks of the congregation. And we're beginnning to rediscover the limits of congregation endurance with our experimentation.

What will we rediscover next?

Bob
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  #33  
Old 01-08-2006, 09:08 AM
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Here's a dilemma that I don't think has been answered.

Your church plays nothing but contemporary P&W - no battles raging against those who prefer hymns to those who don't. You are an ardent worshipper and understand the music is to worship God and not to please men. The pastor is fine with 30 - 45 minutes given to P&W without interruption except for testimonies, words, etc.

But the P&W leader is such a bad vocalist and guitar player that it distracts you from the worship and makes it impossible to sit through the whole worship time.

What do you do then?
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Old 01-08-2006, 09:36 AM
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A dilemma yes, but not the pont of this thread as it was first introduced. Still, look at the heart and the purpose. Constructive criticism on technique is warranted there but certainly not any comments as to the heart and goal of the people leading the worship.
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  #35  
Old 01-08-2006, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson
A dilemma yes, but not the pont of this thread as it was first introduced. Still, look at the heart and the purpose. Constructive criticism on technique is warranted there but certainly not any comments as to the heart and goal of the people leading the worship.
I haven't seen any rule that says all threads are supposed to stay on topic, Nelson. And I didn't mention making any comments, did I?
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  #36  
Old 01-08-2006, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo
Here's a dilemma that I don't think has been answered....
...But the P&W leader is such a bad vocalist and guitar player that it distracts you from the worship and makes it impossible to sit through the whole worship time. What do you do then?
Sometimes the church can be so "spiritually" minded that it is no earthly good. Be practical. To do a job, you need the gifts and skills to accomplish the task. It is true for plumbing and it is true for music. Failure in one results in leaks. Failure in the the other manifests aesthetically. That doesn't make it any less failure.

You need people in the church's jobs who can accomplish their tasks. You've simply revealed a mistake made at the time of bringing in the worship leader in the first place. That doesn't mean you shouldn't handle the problem with love, of course.

Bob
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  #37  
Old 01-08-2006, 09:55 AM
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Well, I think all the responses have given you a good idea why the music in your church might not please you:

Diversity of taste
Limited resources and talent pool
Not mentioned yet but almost universally a problem - the sound system
Perhaps a lack of musical leadership
Motivation of the musicians may not be appropriate. If they're in it for themselves or personal glory the music will "suck" even if they are good because they will be motivated to do music they like and that shows themselves off. Services will turn into concerts. This will only work if the church is a congregation of groupies.
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  #38  
Old 01-08-2006, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirflyguy2000
<snip>
In your defense: there are some churches with absolutely horrible music. By the same token, there are some secular bands that are horrible as well. There is a lot of bad stuff to go around in all genres of music!
Secular bands that suck rarely have a gig every week.
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  #39  
Old 01-08-2006, 10:59 AM
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Priae and worship music is not meant to entertain. Its meant to be played for God in worship to Him. And not matter how bad it may sound to our ears it is all beautiful music to God's ears because it is being played to Him.
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  #40  
Old 01-08-2006, 11:14 AM
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My problem with contemporary worship is not in the people in my church that play it. My problem is with the people that write it. With very, very few exceptions, I think it's formulaic and insincere. It's seems like all they have to do is say "Jesus" about 45 times, talk about love and how it makes them feel and have a bridge that starts in E minor. Most of the bands that I love I listen to because the words are subtle messages. It prompts me to think about them and I come away with a deeper understanding of God or love or whatever is being discussed. If worship is supposed to be a love song to Jesus, I don't think most of contemporary worship would fly.
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  #41  
Old 01-08-2006, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tay
Priae and worship music is not meant to entertain. Its meant to be played for God in worship to Him. And not matter how bad it may sound to our ears it is all beautiful music to God's ears because it is being played to Him.
Change "entertain" to "be a gateway to experiencing Spirit". Bad music can lock that gateway up tighter than the vault at Fort Knox. Good music has the measurable physiological effect of causing the entrainment of the congregations brain waves not at all unlike the effect chanting has. Regardless of the intent that music is a gift to God, the most palpable results are the effect on the congregation.
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  #42  
Old 01-08-2006, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradley dr20
...With very, very few exceptions, I think it's formulaic and insincere.
Hi bradley...
You need better songs!

I think the circles groups draw music from are crucial. We may be more fortunate than many, but we have a lot of local writers who are quite good. Also, there is a new breed of writers out there who are providing some depth. Their songs are not aired on the Christian radio stations I listen to.

On the other hand...I'm not looking for deep challenging theological exploration with worship songs.

Love songs in the secular range from simple to complex. Some are light, sentimental and syrupy, deep and angry, fun, serious, or raging with passion. Worship music can be diverse and still reflect our love for God.

I'm not sure your analogy of ''formulaic'' holds water all the way to the top of that cup. 12 bar blues are formulaic as it comes, and as popular as chocolate. A certain amount of formula - renamed ritual - is necessary for people to stay connected and comfortable.

I cannot get into the heads of the writers, so how would I know if they are ''insincere''. Maybe they are just immature?

Contemplative songs which require no interaction with a congregation may be the place to wax philosophical. They can be as deep as one likes. I've heard some great music done apart from worship (even integrated with a worship set) where a smaller group with a different style tossed thoughts of God out there in some really unique musical accompaniments.

Worship to me is different.

I think your statements reveal what you are looking for from a church service, but not necessarily what your neighbors want. And I see worship like one course in a 4 course meal...I wouldn't want the whole meal to be appetizers or salads.
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  #43  
Old 01-08-2006, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geardaddy
Reading people's signatures on this forum, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that a lot of folks are christians...so my question is this: why does "contemporary" church music suck so bad? My personal opinion is that music ministers have no taste in music, and people in these bands basically are stuck playing what the director wants. these guys seem to be typically a little nerdy, and into vocal stuff, and don't really understand...anybody got any opinions, re: this? My old church started becoming very musically oriented over the past 5 years, and I just couldn't bare to sit through it anymore...so what is up??, bill
Can the mods tell me why this thread was even allowed to continue after post #1? Talk about an inflammatory statement(s). For those who take the music in their churches seriously, as more than a "gig on Sunday", it's pretty offensive. To each his own and no personal attack intended to geardaddy or any other folks whose opinions of CCM are less than favorable. Wouldn't it be better to ask if there are any churches out there that play the music you like? Some of the comments posted later about "lacking talent", "justifying GAS", "mediocre volunteers".....c'mon.....has the thread passed tasteful discussion yet?
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  #44  
Old 01-08-2006, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trpullen
The days of the lame CCM stuff is over. A lot of great stuff has come out in the last 10 years. The problem is, most churches buy from places like Word Publishing and Lileanas Publishing and by the time it hits a book, it is old news.
Is there implication here that there was a "dry spell" in terms of quality in CCM music a few years back, or on the other hand is it that new is by definition "good" whereas (more than 10 years ) old is bad? ( Or something else?)
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Old 01-08-2006, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astrummer
Is there implication here that there was a "dry spell" in terms of quality in CCM music a few years back, or on the other hand is it that new is by definition "good" whereas (more than 10 years ) old is bad? ( Or something else?)
Hi AST...
Don't know of any scientific or Barna Research papers on it, but as a participant for about 25 years in the contemporary Christian music movement, it seems there has been a steady improvement in the quality of writing, lyrics, playing, recording and distribution systems for the music.

Of course wouldn't we expect that? Isn't maturity a good thing?
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