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  #31  
Old 01-22-2014, 09:05 PM
SpiritShooter SpiritShooter is offline
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I have seen pretty intense intonation issues with nylon string guitars. THEN, I purchased a Lester DeVoe Flamenco Negra and I have to say, I am still amazed the the intonation using EJ47 strings is 99%. I forget which string it was but it went just a few cents sharp when I was testing it.

Now, with that said, I can't say the same for my playing.
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  #32  
Old 01-23-2014, 04:12 AM
Honch Honch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
That's true. However, few manufacturers do what is necessary.

First, the worst strings I have ever used, bar none, for intonation inconstancies are Augustine. No other string I have used is anywhere near as bad in its intonation. Perhaps they have changed, since I haven't used them in decades.
See there. That's the only thing I wanted to stress within this thread. String manufacturers and brand (model and material) STILL have a greater impact on nylon strings than what people generally thinks. No matter how well the guitar is made.

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Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
Generally, I find D'Addario strings to intonate very well and be quite consistent.
Yes, see there. There's too much difference. I haven't found this to be equally true within steel strings brands.

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Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
Second, nylon strings generally require less compensation than steel strings. This makes them easier to compensate.... Yes, string type, tension and brand contribute to the result, as does playing technique and string height.
Yes, agree completely, but in this thread, especially the thread starter, wanted to know about guitars, and said that it wasn't to be found. That IT SEEMS you have to shop around longer before you find one nylon that's completely intonated, well say, just as well as ANY steel string picked off any shelf. I just wanted to add another cents, which you, and a few others too, has acknowledged. Now, we know about Agustine, and D'addario, what about the rest that are - so and so - and in between?

Quote:
Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
In short, most guitars - steel string or nylon - have quite poor intonation. But, it doesn't have to be that way. Relatively few players demand better, and relatively few manufacturers deliver better. Regardless, you still have to deal with the difference between equal temperament and what the ear wants to hear as "in tune". That issue exists on all guitars, not just nylon string ones.
Of course, but the physics are the same on all guitars. But the nylon strings as such are - at least compared to steel strings - more inconsistent in diameter throughout it's length on the UNWOUND strings only.

The big discrepancy occurs, and where it in reality differs from pure theoretical and physical rules and laws of intonation, is the SUDDEN JUMP from the wound string and the unwound string. On nylon, the "gap" is between the 4th D-string which is wound, and the 3rd unwound G-string. Not to speak of the difference in height and thickness (gauge) between these two strings. On any acoustic steel string, the "last" wound string is the 3rd G-string, and this "gap" is between the 2nd B-string which is of course, unwound. Takamine (for example) splits their bridge into two sections just because of this, and has different bridge for wound and unwound strings.

On electric guitars, the Fender Telecaster with three part bridge are the worst one's I've seen (for intonation purposes). Once, in the 50's the bridge in the middle SHARED two WOUND strings, i e the 3rd G-string was wound too just as well as the 4th D-string. Now, later on people wanted to bend strings to no end, and later put on banjo strings, and lighter gauges came about and suddenly the UNWOUND g-string should share the same bridge and - thus - intonation distance as the WOUND D-string. Which of course, caused havoc on intonation.

So conclusion:
These strings - especially nylon - should be more apart - in distance - from each other than ANY of the bridges on any nylon classical allows for really. If you've managed to make one ugly bit yourself out of this, with plaster, glue, bone, and filing it down and exactly intonate it, you probably will have to change this the next time you put on a new set ,because of the inconsistencies in the string making of the UNWOUND (plain) strings. They still do vary a bit too much in diameter once brought up to tension and pitch.

I have yet to see any steel string manufacturer that produces any PLAIN string that changes in diameter as you bring them up to pitch. They do lose both intonation and tone after a while, when dents are chewed in on the strings from the frets below and gnarl and dust causes the strings to change widely in diameter along the string. But most people change the strings long before then, i e when the "tone" is gone.

Most classical playing people I know of changes out their wound strings at least three times as often as the unwound ones. They let them treble strings stay on. It's not because of their tone is lost, it's mostly because once they've found a full "3 set" of trebles that stays in tune, and intonates properly, they simply don't wan't to risk intonation again, by just changing out the trebles too. They'd rather have an "old broken in tone" on the trebles BUT intonates and tune properly, than having a "bright new clear tone" but no intonation at all. Eliminating the risk of having to change out all the new trebles all over again, with new strings all of the time until, they find some that has that sweet spot in intonation. The risk of poor intonation when changing out the bass side, is far more of less risk and pretty consistent. Hugely less risk. So manufacturers should sell packages of 3 string sets instead of six. Split them up.
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  #33  
Old 01-26-2014, 08:32 AM
815C 815C is offline
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I played a Taylor nylon string at Guitar Center (not sure the model, but it was $999). The intonation was spot on. However, I did not care for the tone and volume, and the neck/nut was too narrow for my liking.
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  #34  
Old 01-26-2014, 08:21 PM
Special B Special B is offline
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I agree with Honch. While intonation problems can be the fault of the guitar or guitar builder, nylon strings have much more difficulty in achieving proper intonation than steel. This causes some people to blame the guitar when the intonation is off, rather than the real culprit. Likewise, sometimes people praise the intonation of a classical guitar they played, when it isn't any better intonated than the next guitar. The strings make the difference.

And it isn't just a matter of which set or tension you buy.

Nylon strings stretch more than steel, and as they stretch, the diameter of the string shrinks. It is nearly impossible for the string to stretch exactly equally along the entire length of the string. This causes small changes in diameter along the length of the string, which is the cause of most intonation problems on nylon string guitars.

Proper string break-in and stretching techniques can help this, but if done incorrectly can make the problem worse. After installing a new string, I gently stretch it at several points; ideally at every fret. This is done by pulling up on the string like it is a bow string. I have had good results by doing this and found that when I do not perform the stretching and let the strings stretch and settle in on their own, I usually get 1 or 2 strings with very poor intonation.

The intonation on my guitar is perfectly fine. I end up with proper intonation (perfect is impossible) over 50% of the time. About 25% of the time it is very good, and the other ~25% is it poor. I have used the same 2 sets of strings for years (EJ45 and EJTT, medium tension). The times I end up with poor intonation are usually the times I didn't spend much or any time stretching the strings after installing them. But I am sure some people get opposite results and say *NOT* to stretch them manually. YMMV.

It is not unusual for a properly built and set-up nylon string guitar to have poor intonation due to how the strings stretched, or due to manufacturer inconsistencies. The guitar is usually not to blame.

Like Honch said, many players like to keep their properly intonated treble strings installed even when they change the basses. True, the unwound trebles don't lose their tone as much as the wound strings do, but they also tend to stretch more (which means it is harder to get one to settle in and intonate correctly). When I find a G string that has near perfect intonation, I need to keep it installed as long as possible. It is always a crap shoot with new trebles, sometimes the new one will never intonate as close to perfect as the old. It isn't a problem with the guitar or setup.
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  #35  
Old 01-27-2014, 03:09 AM
Honch Honch is offline
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Special B for president!!!!

Thanks for insights. Very, extremely, good food for thought! A tenfold Thank You!

That the guitar always isn't to blame. Now, we hope that the rest of them folks out there hunting for that perfect intonated NYLON guitar reads this thread, and then makes up their own decisions about it. That stretching bit is essential reading. A very good caveat emptor.

It's very good, now and then, to hear that I am not alone about this.

Last edited by Honch; 01-27-2014 at 03:15 AM.
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  #36  
Old 01-27-2014, 06:34 AM
815C 815C is offline
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Yes, thanks Special B. I have a factory 2nd Alvarez classical (probably a $250 guitar) that has had horrible intonation on the G string. I'm going to restring it and try your approach and see what happens.

Thanks again....
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  #37  
Old 01-27-2014, 08:07 AM
Honch Honch is offline
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Default Strings wound around itself ?

The most instances I have had to scrap a brand new G-string - it's only the B or G string, always it seems - I take a good look at it, to see what manufacturing flaws there is different from the FORMER string I put on, the old one, that actually intonated properly.

I look through it through strong bright white light and almost x-ray it. It's opaque but the thing I've found out 10 times out of 10, is that that "faulty" strings seems to be screwed (!) or really, TWISTED around itself too much. Almost like they've been braided. I e the construction, you can see fine lines that winds/twists around the string ALONG the strings length, just as on a rope.

The only comparison I can do is: Take a steel string with a ball end on it. Make that a double ball end string. Stick a needle through both holes of both ball ends, and turn one needle to the right, and the other needle to the left. Sort of twists around itself. Daft comparison, but...

It looks like these strings have been stuck in that position in manufacturing or packaging. I can think that the stretching that occurs ain't enough for bringing the string diameter equal and even throughout its entire length.

I don't know if you'd ever took notice of this, but this is what I've found out so far, regardless of brand, tension, or model. The ones that hasn't got that much twists fares better (which, in all aspects, would be contrary to physics involved!) in intonation. G or B strings only. E-strings are always an even wash. I do not know - however - if this is JUST A COINCIDENCE that this occurs TOO within strings that doesn't hold the intonation up, for any other reason, despite brand new and has been let to settle in.

Always, when breaking up a new package, those strings are more prone to COIL up when trying to lay them flat straight out on a table or something. This means they have more twists inside them. Like those ole retro curly guitar leads... :-)

Last edited by Honch; 01-27-2014 at 08:26 AM. Reason: added comment
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  #38  
Old 01-31-2014, 12:56 AM
Special B Special B is offline
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Thanks Honch, and thanks for your insights as well. I'll start looking more closely at my strings before and after they have been used, like you suggest above.

815C, if manually stretching the string doesn't help, consider trying a different set or tension. You may have better luck with a certain set or brand over another. Also, manually stretching the strings doesn't always work, and it may take some practice before you find a method that works for you. Make sure not to pull the string too much. Just a gentle tug in several places. You can also check the intonation before and during these stretches to see what effect it is having.

I've definitely done the manual stretching thing and felt like I totally screwed up the intonation myself because of over stretching at a certain point.

But unless there was a mistake made in the measuring or installing of the frets or bridge, the issue with your g string intonation is probably due to the string, not the guitar. Action also has an effect on intonation, but unless all of your strings are intonating poorly it probably isn't your issue.

I know that the stretching of the strings (whether done manually or letting the string stretch on its own from being tuned to pitch or above) has a major effect on intonation because I have checked the intonation on a newly installed set (with it being near perfect), and then let them settle over night (with the guitar tuned a half step above standard), and the next day the g string was way off. Sometimes the strings will intonate poorly when freshly installed, but be near-perfect after a day or two.

I think the g string is the most common problem it is because the g string has the largest core, so it is the most susceptible to the diameter changing unevenly due to uneven stretching.
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  #39  
Old 01-31-2014, 10:41 AM
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WaddyT WaddyT is offline
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Get a carbon "g" and put it on the guitar. I don't know the guitar, but if the saddle is not compensated, in some way, it will never be perfect in intonation. After all, a guitar requires tempered tuning for best performance. It's never absolute.
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  #40  
Old 01-31-2014, 02:16 PM
redir redir is offline
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I started using a saddle angle on my classical guitars and honestly I can't tell the difference between that and the old fashion straight saddle. That is to say in either case they are impossible to intonate as good as steal string.

On steel string guitars I like using a wide saddle for compensation but it's generally not accepted in the classical guitar market. I've yet tried a wider saddle for a classical guitar and I do believe that would help quite a bit.
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  #41  
Old 01-31-2014, 03:12 PM
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WaddyT WaddyT is offline
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For most classical strings, a saddle angle doesn't do the job, as a matter of fact, it over compensates the bass strings which have their own set of problems. I double compensate my saddles generally, and shorten the distance from the nut to the first fret, it pretty much takes care of the problem. My saddles are 2.5 mm thick, and I can get enough comp. in there to settle the issue. That said, lately, I have also been compensating the nut to a standard set of offsets and moving it forward even more, and it seems to help even more. Hard to see, but the saddle break point starts forward on the "e" and slopes back to the "g", then the "D" is forward and it slopes back to the "E".
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  #42  
Old 02-01-2014, 05:23 PM
redir redir is offline
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I can see it Waddy. And yes that has been my experience that the angled saddle might solve some problems but exposes others such that it's a wash. I've been considering going back to straight for that reason.
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  #43  
Old 02-02-2014, 09:11 AM
815C 815C is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Special B View Post
I agree with Honch. While intonation problems can be the fault of the guitar or guitar builder, nylon strings have much more difficulty in achieving proper intonation than steel. This causes some people to blame the guitar when the intonation is off, rather than the real culprit. Likewise, sometimes people praise the intonation of a classical guitar they played, when it isn't any better intonated than the next guitar. The strings make the difference.

And it isn't just a matter of which set or tension you buy.

Nylon strings stretch more than steel, and as they stretch, the diameter of the string shrinks. It is nearly impossible for the string to stretch exactly equally along the entire length of the string. This causes small changes in diameter along the length of the string, which is the cause of most intonation problems on nylon string guitars.

Proper string break-in and stretching techniques can help this, but if done incorrectly can make the problem worse. After installing a new string, I gently stretch it at several points; ideally at every fret. This is done by pulling up on the string like it is a bow string. I have had good results by doing this and found that when I do not perform the stretching and let the strings stretch and settle in on their own, I usually get 1 or 2 strings with very poor intonation.

The intonation on my guitar is perfectly fine. I end up with proper intonation (perfect is impossible) over 50% of the time. About 25% of the time it is very good, and the other ~25% is it poor. I have used the same 2 sets of strings for years (EJ45 and EJTT, medium tension). The times I end up with poor intonation are usually the times I didn't spend much or any time stretching the strings after installing them. But I am sure some people get opposite results and say *NOT* to stretch them manually. YMMV.

It is not unusual for a properly built and set-up nylon string guitar to have poor intonation due to how the strings stretched, or due to manufacturer inconsistencies. The guitar is usually not to blame.

Like Honch said, many players like to keep their properly intonated treble strings installed even when they change the basses. True, the unwound trebles don't lose their tone as much as the wound strings do, but they also tend to stretch more (which means it is harder to get one to settle in and intonate correctly). When I find a G string that has near perfect intonation, I need to keep it installed as long as possible. It is always a crap shoot with new trebles, sometimes the new one will never intonate as close to perfect as the old. It isn't a problem with the guitar or setup.
I restrung my humble Alvarez classical and tried stretching the strings and you described above and I'm very happy with the results! I can play this chord and it actually sounds in tune!!

x-10-12-12-12-10

Thanks again!!
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  #44  
Old 02-03-2014, 02:26 PM
redir redir is offline
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I have to say I've never heard of this stretching technique before. I'm not saying it does or does not work though I'm a bit skeptical. I do stretch the strings while tuning up new strings simply because it helps them stay in tune longer, it shortens the break in stretching period. But I've never heard of doing it to balance string densities for better intonation. I'll certainly test this idea out though.
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  #45  
Old 02-05-2014, 07:29 AM
Honch Honch is offline
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Good to hear that it helped. Mind you all, that Special B stated that it should PROBABLY only be carried out if the strings are WAY OUT of intonation.

Remember, we are only talking about the following:

1. The intonation is totally off FROM BEING more than perfect on the older set of strings that we took off. Perfect or prefect, but on the last set of strings, intonation was decent for you. And your fingers, fingerings, action and so on.

2. You change out strings to the exact same set, without altering anything on the guitar, in action or no nothing. All of a sudden, all intonation is totally off. No matter how long time it takes to settle in.

3. Then it can't possibly be the guitar can it?

If you do this stretching technique it probably should be performed on strings that already is off in intonation, so much you would probably change them out anyway. Because, they - as Special B said - can get even worse. But since you're going to have to scrap them anyway, it's worth a try.

I wonder what "liquid" or "fluid" there is inside that lumps or clogs up the line. So to speak. It's something flexible for sure...

Another, slightly related test thing is the following method:

Tune up an open string, with an open note (not any harmonic) to a good strobe tuner (or similar) and tune up so it's dead spot on. Like 0 cent. Now, press ABOVE the twelfth fret. DO NOT FRET YET! You should play just the "half of the string" harmonic, that we normally use as a guideline for intonation. Read the tuner. If it doesn't show dead spot on TOO just as the open string, the string is "unclean" or scrappable. It's basically a dead string even if it's brand new. An open string should have same reading (to 0 cent) as when pressed above 12th fret. However, the above the 7th fret definitely not, and not on 5th. But those two, completely open, and harmonic above 12th fret should read exactly the same. Only THEN you can start your intonation procedure, with pressing a fret too.

I've discovered this the most with nylon trebles, but steel strings with so called ROUND CORES can be prone to these intonation inconsistencies too, due to that the spun and winding are starting to unravel or clog up, making the string uneven in diameter. There's nothing to do but throw it away. I mean, brand new ones. Round cores demands a little bit extra work when putting them on.

This, of course, happens too, with way too old strings (any, nylon, steel) when fret marks has chewed in big time on the strings, it starts to be uneven and false 12th fret harmonic. But hey, you do change strings before that'll happen don't you? They probably have rust in them too...
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