Need a Pickup for Loud Bands and Quiet Coffeehouses

[roylor4]

Mag pickup for sure. You may or may not lose more than 5% in tone/volume department acoustically but there are tradeoffs for everything. You want loud and feedback resistant? Soundhole Mag all the way.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by ric4682

…I’m probably 90/10 for flatpick/fingers and I don’t play particularly hard. Let’s say my budget is $300 and I don’t think I want to mess with a dual source that needs to be mixed with outboard gear. What do I need? Dimarzio Black Angel? M80? Anthem?

Hi ric

Depending on how loud the Loud Band is, I'd go magnetic. Also if you are using heavy effects. Actually if I'm in a loud situation, I often go electric (usually my 1992 American Strat).

But for coffee houses, I'd want Sound Board Transducers plus internal mic (like the K&K) with my best acoustic. These days, all my acoustics have a K&K pure mini and I run them through my ToneDexter.

Trying to hybrid a pickup for both those extremes is too big a compromise for me. You have to decide how much compromise you can tolerate.

[63telemaster]

Originally Posted by ric4682

That’s good to know! The M80 is definitely near the top of my list so I’ll have to move the BA up there as well. Is the sound just more neutral than the M80? I’ve read that the M80 has a problematic midrange that’s tough to dial in.

That is indeed what I found. I used the M1A and M80 over a couple of years and they both needed a lot of eq treatment my end and at the desk. They varied from venue to venue sometimes to the extent that I had to palm mute to stop feedback. I remember one night my sound man showing me the eq curve he was having to run

As soon as I switched to the BA I was in another world. The eq settings I gave above were for "in the mix" purposes whereas for a singer songwriter type set you wouldn't need to be as drastic.

I also have a Sunrise with the little black box preamp which I bought and never got around to using in a show. I've AB'd it in the studio and I marginally prefer it to the Black Angel but never felt the need to change.

[El Conquistador]

Originally Posted by ric4682

First, I don’t want to mess the acoustic sound of the guitar when I’m just playing it at home because it’s sound is the whole reason I bought it.

Read post #15 in this thread. https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=231084

Steve

[AeroUSA]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

Another option would be to install a Matrix UST, which doesn't impact the tone and then try something like the Aura, Tonedexter or the newer Voiceprint. I am hoping that the Voiceprint makes it even more possibe/easy to use a UST and still get a great/natural tone.

I used the OMJM goldplus with IR in my latest live stream. Sounded pretty good!

[Nick84]

Consider a rare earth blend. You can dial in more mic for your quieter stuff and then use mostly the humbucker for the band situations. I think they sound great and they are slim in comparison with a lot of other soundhole pickups.

I’ve also got a passive M1 in my Big Baby and I’ve never had an issue getting a good live sound.

[meb]

Here is my take on 3 of my favorite SH pickups for your situation.

If you are going to install a pu for a show, the Black Angel with its mini-jack
will be the easiest to deal with and sound good.

The Blackstack is a little more clumsy to plug in an take out, but certainly
doable. If you decide on a permanent install, be sure to check this one out.

The Rare Earth Blend is easy to pop in and out and sounds great. The
downside is that you have to reposition the mic each time. I have not
used this live yet, so I cannot comment on feedback issues.

What I like about SH pickups is you can pop them out and your unplugged
sound is unaffected.

[Mbroady]

Originally Posted by ric4682

That’s what I’ve heard and the Anthem is definitely on the radar because of that. Does having the Element in there effect the sound of the guitar unplugged though?

I’ve had the Anthem (SL) in 2 guitars. In one there was a noticeable change in volume and tone. So the Pick up was removed. It was then put into another guitar and I’m happy to say there was no noticeable change in the acoustic sound of the second guitar.

Can’t think of any reason why on one guitar there was a noticeable change and non on the other. Both had bone saddles and both had a professional instillation. Both sounded amazing plugged in.

[ric4682]

Originally Posted by 63telemaster

That is indeed what I found. I used the M1A and M80 over a couple of years and they both needed a lot of eq treatment my end and at the desk. They varied from venue to venue sometimes to the extent that I had to palm mute to stop feedback. I remember one night my sound man showing me the eq curve he was having to run

As soon as I switched to the BA I was in another world. The eq settings I gave above were for "in the mix" purposes whereas for a singer songwriter type set you wouldn't need to be as drastic.

I also have a Sunrise with the little black box preamp which I bought and never got around to using in a show. I've AB'd it in the studio and I marginally prefer it to the Black Angel but never felt the need to change.

The Black Angel seems to keep coming up. And it’s not too pricey. I’ll have to give that one a shot.

Originally Posted by El Conquistador

Read post #15 in this thread. https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=231084

Steve

Hmm that seems to confirm my suspicions about the element UST.

Originally Posted by AeroUSA

I used the OMJM goldplus with IR in my latest live stream. Sounded pretty good!

I’ve never messed around with IR’s before. Actually, I didn’t even realize IR’s on acoustic were a thing! I’ll have to do some investigating on that front.

Originally Posted by Nick84

Consider a rare earth blend. You can dial in more mic for your quieter stuff and then use mostly the humbucker for the band situations. I think they sound great and they are slim in comparison with a lot of other soundhole pickups.

I’ve also got a passive M1 in my Big Baby and I’ve never had an issue getting a good live sound.

I didn’t realize they had one with a built in mic! I’ll check that out for sure.

Originally Posted by meb

Here is my take on 3 of my favorite SH pickups for your situation.

If you are going to install a pu for a show, the Black Angel with its mini-jack
will be the easiest to deal with and sound good.

The Blackstack is a little more clumsy to plug in an take out, but certainly
doable. If you decide on a permanent install, be sure to check this one out.

The Rare Earth Blend is easy to pop in and out and sounds great. The
downside is that you have to reposition the mic each time. I have not
used this live yet, so I cannot comment on feedback issues.

What I like about SH pickups is you can pop them out and your unplugged
sound is unaffected.

That’s good to know! Unfortunately, SH pickups seem to be my least favorite sounding type of acoustic pickup, but also unfortunately they are probably that best option for my uses.

[varmonter]

I've run the gambit on pups.
I play in a pretty loud band.
I grew weary of dialing in a pickup at home.
Only to have it fall short at gig volume.
I bought the m80 and agree it's a good
Pup but the body sensing thing is an issue
At volume. Like Sbts like the kk all is fine when your alone and there is no louder noise
around. When you introduce bass and drums
The sbt also picks up the top vibrating
to these . I think the body sensing thing
In the m80 does a bit of the same but not
as much as an sbt. I went back to the sunrise
and am happy as a clam. The black angel I have not tried but it gets a lot of love here.
If I am playing at home I still
Like the kk but rarely use it anymore.
I think also piezo pups are exponential
In the louder you play their response
Is exponential..where a mag pup is linear.
And easier to control that way.

[63telemaster]

Originally Posted by varmonter

I've run the gambit on pups.
I play in a pretty loud band.
I grew weary of dialing in a pickup at home.
Only to have it fall short at gig volume.
I bought the m80 and agree it's a good
Pup but the body sensing thing is an issue
At volume. Like Sbts like the kk all is fine when your alone and there is no louder noise
around. When you introduce bass and drums
The sbt also picks up the top vibrating
to these . I think the body sensing thing
In the m80 does a bit of the same but not
as much as an sbt. I went back to the sunrise
and am happy as a clam. The black angel I have not tried but it gets a lot of love here.
If I am playing at home I still
Like the kk but rarely use it anymore.
I think also piezo pups are exponential
In the louder you play their response
Is exponential..where a mag pup is linear.
And easier to control that way.

Agreed, this is the reality of using acoustic guitars in bands and why it is important to choose the right pickup for your application. Baggs body sensing just creates problems in this situation and is more of a marketing gimmick than a useful feature imo. When the drums and bass start playing no-one cares what pickup you have if you're howling away and reaching for your mute button. Keep it simple!

I would not recommend bothering with IRs either as they too can create problems and aren't really very effective with mag pickups, been there too.

[varmonter]

Originally Posted by 63telemaster

I would not recommend bothering with IRs either as they too can create problems and aren't really very effective with mag pickups, been there too.

I have a martin 45 ir loaded in my helix stomp.
It is usually run only around 20-30% so not
Much in the mix. I may try deleting it.
Then I could add trem.

[63telemaster]

Originally Posted by varmonter

I have a martin 45 ir loaded in my helix stomp.
It is usually run only around 20-30% so not
Much in the mix. I may try deleting it.
Then I could add trem.

Presumably this was the Sigma? I tried using some of the IRs that are (were?) freely available on the net and settled on one from an HD28 captured with a Neumann U67 IIRC. Maybe the Sigma IRs are better quality?

I found I could only run my IR mix at around 12% and even then had to use another eq to trim out some problems it created. By that time the effect became so subtle that it really wasn't worth the effort. Maybe more effective for solo applications.

I believe the HX Stomp is eventually being updated to allow 8 blocks so in future we can run IRs, trems and even a mondo fuzzulator

[varmonter]

Originally Posted by 63telemaster

Presumably this was the Sigma? I tried using some of the IRs that are (were?) freely available on the net and settled on one from an HD28 captured with a Neumann U67 IIRC. Maybe the Sigma IRs are better quality?

I found I could only run my IR mix at around 12% and even then had to use another eq to trim out some problems it created. By that time the effect became so subtle that it really wasn't worth the effort. Maybe more effective for solo applications.

I believe the HX Stomp is eventually being updated to allow 8 blocks so in future we can run IRs, trems and even a mondo fuzzulator

Yes 3 sigma. It has kind of a blanket effect
Just kind of smoothing over of things. The helix adds a bunch of adjustments to the ir
block like hi and low cut,level, some other things..I often wonder if I need it. I also have
A Gibson f style mando ir in my mandolin preset. I had a 17th century upright bass ir
In my bass preset that sounded really good
With my fretless pbass. But I dont play the bass much. The band has a bass player now.
I'll will reserve the mondo fuzzulater for my more subdued applications..

[ric4682]

My pedalboard is already pretty full of fun goodies so I don’t think I’ll be adding an HX Stomp or something similar to start experimenting with IRs. As much as I usually dislike the sound of a SH mag pickup, I think I’m going to give the Black Angel a try. It seems like a pretty low risk option.
I’m still curious if there are piezo’s that don’t effect the unplugged tone much, or SBTs that are more feedback resistant though!