Opinions wanted please. 14 fret neck on Ditson sized body?

[Skarsaune]

Originally Posted by llew

So would they make it a long scale (if standard is 25.4" and short is 24.9"/24.75") or would it be considered a baritone? Not sure what actually constitutes a baritone other than a lower standard tuning. (B to b?)

Baritones usually start at 27”’scale, tuned B to B.
So this would certainly approach a baritone if the scale was stretched to 26.7.

Hmmm.

[llew]

I'd be interested to see/hear the results of such a build. Although...it might be a handful to play?

[H165]

Here's one. S body, forward braces, 14 fret 25.4 scale. 1 3/4" nut. Slightly scalloped. It's probably the best sounding D I've ever played. Ergonomic feel not much different than a D-28S.

[Skarsaune]

Originally Posted by J Patrick

...that’s a very cool linked page...thanks for that...

Indeed. Lots more on that site.

[Skarsaune]

Originally Posted by H165

Here's one. S body, forward braces, 14 fret 25.4 scale. 1 3/4" nut. Slightly scalloped. It's probably the best sounding D I've ever played. Ergonomic feel not much different than a D-28S.

Nice! Good to see one in the wild.

[D41Fan]

Wow, thanks for the informative replies. Really appreciate it. I want to do an all Walnut, top included. I have heard some recently and love the deeper tone with little string separation. Gibson did a J45 all walnut in 2018. If it wasnt for the fact it wasnt a 25.4" scale, I would grab it. Taylor just recently done an all walnut as well as a limited, but the appointments didnt do it for me.
If I have to I may end up with a DSS17 body all walnut with regular bracing.

[Skarsaune]

Originally Posted by D41Fan

Wow, thanks for the informative replies. Really appreciate it. I want to do an all Walnut, top included. I have heard some recently and love the deeper tone with little string separation. Gibson did a J45 all walnut in 2018. If it wasnt for the fact it wasnt a 25.4" scale, I would grab it. Taylor just recently done an all walnut as well as a limited, but the appointments didnt do it for me.
If I have to I may end up with a DSS17 body all walnut with regular bracing.

Very interesting. Do you intend to build it yourself?

[D41Fan]

From what I heard, Martin had done it in the past and will do it again. The bracing is something I;d have to have figured out.. I dont want a baritone though.

[Skarsaune]

Originally Posted by D41Fan

From what I heard, Martin had done it in the past and will do it again. The bracing is something I;d have to have figured out.. I dont want a baritone though.

Never seen or heard of a walnut topped Martin - back and sides, sure.
Must have been a custom shop job.

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by D41Fan

I dont know if its ever been done, but I have been tossing the idea around. I like the Ditson shaped slope dread, but I need 14 frets to body. 12 frets make me feel to cramped.
I want to do an all black walnut guitar and this will be my last one. I am thinking rear shifted 5/16" lightly scalloped bracing. I know how all walnut guitars sound, but not in this configuration.
Any builders, feel free to chime in. I know this would be a big guitar.

Thanks,
Dan

You've had a lot of answers and suggestions so far, and I'l just add some comments.

As you will know Ditson went to he wall in about 1929.
Martin saw the change of use happening and attempted to compete with the Gibson archtops by squishng down their largest body - the 000 and called it the OM (Orchestra model) in 1929 - it wasn't a great success.
In 1931 they resurrected the Ditson 111 design branded Martin
The OM wasn't wining much ground against Gibson and was discontinued in 1933.
They converted the dreadnought by doing exactly the same thing as they had done to the 000 in 1934 - initially called the OM (again)
I have no evidence for this but it is my theory that Gibson saw the original dreadnought and pretty much copied the shape but with the new fashion for longer thinner necks - in 1934 the Jumbo was introduced.
Gibson already had a lead in orchestral instruments, but like Martin, saw an opportunity in the newly commercialised folk and country scene.

I think that the guitar you are envisioning is what Gibson called the "advanced" Jumbo in 1935.

All my flat tops are 12 fretters, and my dreadnoughts are Collings versions of the original dreadnought.
My style doesn't require play above the 12th fret, but i do require a wider fretboard than the 1934 and on rhythm style necks.

In my humble opinions of around fifty years of Gibsons jumbos, super jumbos, Guilds, Epiphone, and Martins, the high point of the large body guitar was with the 1931 Original dreadnought, but the tonal quality and projection is largely about where the bridge is placed on the top. A 14 fret version somewhat loses that.

Anyway, when marching forward, it is always worth considering what went before.

I have no comment on the Walnut body not ever having one. FWIW I was offered a walnut Lakewood OM once which seemed clean and glassy in tone, and I tried two Gibson Jackson Brownes also with walnut and found them both "feh".

[Malcolm Kindnes]

I have a Martin Ditson 111. If you wanted to keep the same body size but have a 14 fret neck, you would have to increase the scale length considerably, which would give you a baritone scale, or else move the bridge nearly two inches closer to the sound hole, which is probably not a good idea.
If you think of it in reverse, the original Ditson guitar had 12 frets and a scale length of 25.4. To keep the same scale length and give you a 14 fret neck the best design option was to shorten the body at the shoulders.

[ataylor]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

I think that the guitar you are envisioning is what Gibson called the "advanced" Jumbo in 1935.

This is what I was thinking as well. I’d check with a prominent Gibson dealer (Music Villa right there in Bozeman comes to mind first) and/or a handful of builders that make guitars in those classic shapes and styles (luthiers like Fairbanks, Kopp, Walker, or smaller shops like Collings, Bourgeois, or Santa Cruz) and see what an all-walnut, standard-scale Advanced-Jumbo-style guitar would cost and how long the wait would be.

I’d also discuss tone and aesthetics with any of these builders and be open to suggestions from the experts — it might be that an all-walnut guitar is less likely to deliver the desired sonic flavor than a different combination of woods that could be stained and styled to give a similar look. Just a thought.

[tippy5]

A Goodall Traditional dreadnought can get you the horsepower. I sold an Adi/Cocobolo one. It needed a huge right hand to get it in its intended gear. I would of loved to have it back in my 20's.

There are some amazing "cannons" from the 90's if you luck out and can get one. A 1990's Gibson Advanced Jumbo. Some are really bold.

Some of the Martin Outlaw 17 videos I have heard (with my Rokit 8 speakers) blow me away.

For the exact Ditson body size I am drawing a blank. I appreciate where you are headed on this front though!

[D41Fan]

Thanks everyone, to make it easier, I just might go with a DSS sized slope.
Both Gibson and Taylor made all walnut guitars as a limited run.. I;ve heard the videos and that is exactly the tone I am looking for. Gibson is short scale though and I;m not a fan of Taylor.

https://empiremusic.com/shop/taylor-...igured-walnut/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw2XrJ5_cRc