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  #91  
Old 07-31-2019, 09:33 AM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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Default Schatten HFN passive pickup - my experience

I sent this to a friend this morning:

The HFN is a good option for people who can live with the downsides of K&K and are particular about having very little stuff inside their guitars. The structure appears to act as a natural (passive) filter for the low mids (the reduced contact area), and natural (passive) amplifier for highs (suspension of the piezo). Those are the two weaknesses of K&K. But, all the same relative strengths and weaknesses will be present with this piezo system. Moreover, because it it soft coupled to the bridge plate, you need to get the placement right, and adhesions solid, or you lose bass performance.

The bottom line for me is that I am very happy with my active HFN VT installation in the D-28 Modern Deluxe. It’s probably one of the best sounding (low impact) pickups that I’ve use. I’ve used pickups that sound as good, or better, but they all weigh the guitar down and/or change the acoustic tone of the guitar, to my ears. The other piezo based pickups that give similar (potentially better depending on your needs) results are: Dazzo, Trance, and UltraTonic. The advantages to HFN over these others are price and ease of installation.
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Last edited by martingitdave; 07-31-2019 at 09:39 AM.
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  #92  
Old 07-31-2019, 11:05 AM
stevecuss stevecuss is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martingitdave View Post
I sent this to a friend this morning:

The HFN is a good option for people who can live with the downsides of K&K and are particular about having very little stuff inside their guitars. The structure appears to act as a natural (passive) filter for the low mids (the reduced contact area), and natural (passive) amplifier for highs (suspension of the piezo). Those are the two weaknesses of K&K. But, all the same relative strengths and weaknesses will be present with this piezo system. Moreover, because it it soft coupled to the bridge plate, you need to get the placement right, and adhesions solid, or you lose bass performance.

The bottom line for me is that I am very happy with my active HFN VT installation in the D-28 Modern Deluxe. It’s probably one of the best sounding (low impact) pickups that I’ve use. I’ve used pickups that sound as good, or better, but they all weigh the guitar down and/or change the acoustic tone of the guitar, to my ears. The other piezo based pickups that give similar (potentially better depending on your needs) results are: Dazzo, Trance, and UltraTonic. The advantages to HFN over these others are price and ease of installation.
Wow, this is a fantastic summary of the HFN. I didn't know about the 'soft coupling' approach, but that makes a lot of sense.

Other benefits to the HFN: active or passive, your choice. If active, then a second channel available for another pickup of your choice. Also, if active, then battery inside guitar or phantom powered outside.

They've really done a lot to create an affordable, high end sounding, flexible option non invasive pickup.
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Mcilroy A25c (Cedar, English Walnut) with Schatten HFN (custom MiSi Crystal Jack Preamp, putty install.)
Maton 75th Anniversary OM
50th Anniversary Fender Am Std Strat.
Gretsch 6120 Nashville Players in Blue.
Line 6 Helix.

If I played as much as I read threads, I'd be a pro....
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  #93  
Old 07-31-2019, 01:41 PM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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Originally Posted by stevecuss View Post
Wow, this is a fantastic summary of the HFN. I didn't know about the 'soft coupling' approach, but that makes a lot of sense.



Other benefits to the HFN: active or passive, your choice. If active, then a second channel available for another pickup of your choice. Also, if active, then battery inside guitar or phantom powered outside.



They've really done a lot to create an affordable, high end sounding, flexible option non invasive pickup.

Agreed. The soft couple language is from Les Schatten’s literature. It makes a lot of sense to me. On the other hand, there is value to the systems that use glue to attach (K&K, Dazzo, UltraTonic), if nothing more than for peace of mind.
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  #94  
Old 07-31-2019, 01:56 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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I still say that the HFN is closer to the Lr Baggs lyric in terms of tone. To me, it’s extremely balanced in that no frequencies really dominate the signal. That reminds me of the lyric. As a result, many are put off by the lack of enhanced bass. I know I miss it sometimes. It’s thicker sounding than the lyric, it just reminds me of it.

The k&k on the other hand has a thicker overall tone. I just feel as though the strings have more beef behind them. There’s also more bass and midrange. I like that the HFN is clearer but I also like the low end of the K&k.
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  #95  
Old 07-31-2019, 02:37 PM
stevecuss stevecuss is offline
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Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
I still say that the HFN is closer to the Lr Baggs lyric in terms of tone. To me, it’s extremely balanced in that no frequencies really dominate the signal. That reminds me of the lyric. As a result, many are put off by the lack of enhanced bass. I know I miss it sometimes. It’s thicker sounding than the lyric, it just reminds me of it.

The k&k on the other hand has a thicker overall tone. I just feel as though the strings have more beef behind them. There’s also more bass and midrange. I like that the HFN is clearer but I also like the low end of the K&k.
Agreed. The K&K remains an industry standard by which the rest are measured for a reason. It also beats the passive HFN with its output. It sends a much hotter signal out - very impressive for a passive pickup. And I agree about the ‘thickness’ of tone. Sometimes you don’t want an articulated sound. I’ve often listened to a K&K equipped guitar through our system and wondered why I’d ever want for more. But I think it’s downside is the Same-ness to the tone of the K&K in different guitars, the glue for sure, and the quack that sometimes comes through.
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Mcilroy A25c (Cedar, English Walnut) with Schatten HFN (custom MiSi Crystal Jack Preamp, putty install.)
Maton 75th Anniversary OM
50th Anniversary Fender Am Std Strat.
Gretsch 6120 Nashville Players in Blue.
Line 6 Helix.

If I played as much as I read threads, I'd be a pro....
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  #96  
Old 08-24-2019, 05:27 AM
Liveburning274 Liveburning274 is offline
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I have had this pickup in for about 2 months now with Schatten’s VT pre.

It honestly has been a fight to get this not too be too bright or very middy in my J-45 without having the tone knob rolled down 80%. Perhaps I’m not very good with placement, but I’ve moved this pickup around 3 times now with putty on 2 feet and still have ALOT of highs. Almost tinny.

I’m happy for ideas if anyone has them, or I may just need someone who knows more about how to get this thing set to help out.

Just my .02 of experience.
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  #97  
Old 08-24-2019, 06:15 AM
jonfields45 jonfields45 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liveburning274 View Post
I have had this pickup in for about 2 months now with Schatten’s VT pre.

It honestly has been a fight to get this not too be too bright or very middy in my J-45 without having the tone knob rolled down 80%. Perhaps I’m not very good with placement, but I’ve moved this pickup around 3 times now with putty on 2 feet and still have ALOT of highs. Almost tinny.

I’m happy for ideas if anyone has them, or I may just need someone who knows more about how to get this thing set to help out.

Just my .02 of experience.
I had this problem in my first install. I am using tape on all three legs. I discovered I did not use enough pressure to get all three legs securely fastened. Once fixed that guitar needed no EQ to sound great (previously ~6-9 dB of bass boost on a GE-7). My two subsequent installs are working similarly and need no EQ (the GE-7 is back on a shelf).

I do use a K&K like tool to get the placement directly under the saddle, but looking at the final results on my three guitars (checking clearance to the low E-string ball), I'm probably a 1/4" different across the three guitars.

My experience would indicate you should try tape, not get too uptight about exact placement, and push up on the three legs and down on the bridge to make sure the HFN distorts to the shape of your bridge plate and is securely taped.
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  #98  
Old 07-08-2020, 07:32 PM
gluve95 gluve95 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNO View Post
I was just running mine through my Schertler Jam 150 and it really does the "guitar, just louder" thing. Way better than my K&K-equipped guitar.
Are you running an active or passive into the amp.
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  #99  
Old 07-09-2020, 08:58 AM
TNO TNO is offline
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Originally Posted by gluve95 View Post
Are you running an active or passive into the amp.
It worked fine straight in but I usually run through a RedEye since I have one.
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  #100  
Old 07-12-2020, 12:45 PM
SongJoy SongJoy is offline
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Fantastic thread, folks! :-) So the HFN seems to be exactly what I‘m after for replacing my K&K Trinity (UST + soundhole mic) in my all-solid Voyage Air dreadnaught. I‘ve been very dissatisfied with the K&K in both modes (i.e. running just the K&K UST in passive mode with a mono cable, and running in dual-source mode with a split stereo cable, with the mic blended in via the K&K external preamp or a RedEye rigged with phantom power on one channel). With just the passive UST running, the guitar sounds unnaturally boomy and muddy and almost non-existent top end. It needs lots of treble added to get it sounding a bit usable, but at no point does the sound get close to the beautiful sound of the guitar, itself...and boomy feedback happens with floor wedges. With both signals running, the mic adds the necessary air and treble, but it feeds back really fast. So I ended up never using that guitar live, and figured one day I‘d replace the Trinity with a normal piezo. Enter the HFN. :-) My question to you folks is: passive or active? I use my guitars in various set-ups, so sometimes straight into a Bose S1 Pro or a Roland Street Cube Ex (with a different woofer installed for more bottom end response, in case anybody’s interested), and sometimes into a mixing desk, in which case I usually have my Zoom A1 Four in between for compression and effects (I usually skip the Zoom when going straight into one of my two amps used for quick-and-dirty busking). I could of course also toss the RedEye in to pep up a passive pick-up (count the P‘s). But does the passive HFN really call for so much extra gain, or would it be good to go in a Bose S1 Pro or mixer? One of the posters here (pages back) spoke of it not sounded great in the Bose S1 Pro. Any other experience with that, or with going into mixing desks, or into a Zoom and then into a mixing desk? The idea of a passive, no-fuss pickup appeals to me a lot, but I don‘t want to sacrifice any sound quality or be forced to always use a RedEye.
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  #101  
Old 07-12-2020, 04:04 PM
Birdbrain Birdbrain is offline
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Default HFN vs Lyric

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
I still say that the HFN is closer to the Lr Baggs lyric in terms of tone. To me, it’s extremely balanced in that no frequencies really dominate the signal. That reminds me of the lyric. As a result, many are put off by the lack of enhanced bass. I know I miss it sometimes. It’s thicker sounding than the lyric, it just reminds me of it.
I use those two, in different guitars. I'm the Seagull, the HFN is crisper, and the Tacoma/Lyric is much better balanced from string to string. The HFN tends to lose volume on the extremes, from both E strings, like it's built too narrow. I'd prefer the HFN if it was as balanced as the Lyric.
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