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  #16  
Old 07-15-2020, 02:47 AM
Silly Moustache Silly Moustache is offline
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Ok, here's my experience. Please remember that I have been playing, buying and selling guitar for fifty years.
Also I tend to become friends with people who make guitars and those who maintain/repair them (and not just because I give them money!)

I was in Brighton may years ago for a Martin Guitar "show" I heard Chris Martin IV say - "When you buy a "NEW" Martin Guitar - that's the worst its ever going to sound".

I believe this to be correct.

A good friend called Dickenson used to make fine lightly built guitars. He would call me over whenever he finished them for a client, and ask me to play it and take notes on my observations. Then he would ask me to take them home and play them for a few weeks before telling the client that their guitar was ready. I did this frequently. He was convinced that I was good at "opening up" new guitars. Initially they sounded trebly and harsh, and there is a limit that one can do to change the tone in a few days, but he was convinced that my less than subtle playing style "started them on their journey.

Of my current collection (lets just keep it to flat-tops) I have four Collings guitars. two of which I bought via ebay "used" , one private purchase, and one used from a shop.

DS1ASB - (2003) - adi - well used, nine years old on private purchase - well into improvement process - no action but to play it.
DS1 - (2008) (ebay) 2010 - showroom condition, no marks even on pick guard - apparently unused - Tight as a drum. Trebly - harsh, slightly lacking on bass/middle.
I used it as my bluegrass guitar - played it long and hard - needed refret after appr. 4 years - now loudest, most strident guitar I own.
DS2h - (2007) - bought 2011 - unused but uncared for - much set up work necessary. Well balanced and now full and warm - no actions but to play it.
0002h (2003) Warm full on purchase - usual comment from friends "I love this guitar!" Light est guitar, light gauge strings, can be overplayed.

Waterloo WL-12 - bought new 2016 instead of a Gibson l-00. Got it home , hated it. Hung it on wall in my home office - where I play talk radio whenever I'm there (which is most days for hours) Tone changed noticeably in 6-8 months.

Santa Cruz RS (2012) imported from USA 2014. Unused. Sitka/hog - tight, lacking bass and middle. Felt "choked". Not greatly played but admired when I did. Tone improved radically in 2018/9. "all by itself" Now exhibits that impressive "middle" associated with the 5" deep 12 fret jumbo design.

Hockey 0028 (1998) This is a locally built guitar built with all Martin supplied woods, and built with rather thick bracing as he thought I was a heavy handed player (!) A number of initial intonation issues - on it third (and last) bridge. Lives on the wall in my office - listening to the radio EVERY DAY.
Incredible resonant and tonally superior to most.

Eastman E20-P (2019) Adi/EIR - good from the outset - Size "0" will not have dreadnought style bass but should be balanced. Adi tends to be tighter initially, and takes longer to open up. Sounds fine but has not yet been given the exposure to sound and play to "fill out". (I should hang it in my office!)

NOTE: Collings guitars are wonderful but - incredibly sensitive to temperature and RH changes. Do not sound good if cold or drier than app 45%

Summary -
1. "Good" guitars tend to improve with age.
2. Good guitars need to be played hard and frequently.
3. Subjecting a good guitar to continuous sound (talk radio is fine, though good hifi speakers - Tonerites also work, playing is best).

A Good guitar when new is a "potentially" a great instrument.
It is the responsibility of the owner/player to bring out the tone of a good guitar.

Definition of "Good" : a well built guitar with suitable tonewoods.

However : Humans are strange and complex creatures. We become sensitised to certain things, and it is entirely possible that we become more aware/adjusted to the qualities/deficiencies of an instrument over time.

We have no idea as to how our hearing varies (I have become aware of this from the after effects of radio therapy which has messed with all my senses), and we carry with us assumptions and biases which may affect our assessments.
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I'm here to try to help and advise and I offer one to one lessons/meetings/mentoring via Zoom!

Last edited by Silly Moustache; 07-15-2020 at 03:35 AM.
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  #17  
Old 07-15-2020, 02:51 AM
Rinaz Rinaz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterMN View Post
I've heard a number of different takes on what exactly happens to a spruce top as it ages. Ive heard the following... more responsiveness, greater projection, warmer tone, more fundamental tone, more overtones, more bass. Which of these claims carry any truth?
Age does play a part in guitar tone. I asked Taylor Customer support and they said that.


I have a Taylor 1996 710 Engelmann/Brazillian(pretty straight grains) and a brand new 6 weeks old Taylor 810E Sitka/EIR (made in 2014). The 710 is just louder, more overtones, more sustain, more "zing" treble etc. kind of more of everything. Like the 810E is being eaten alive when play side by side. The 810E is not a dud one, It sounds amazing, and I compared it to other guitars too like Martin D18, D28, D35, D45, and D42 I would say my 810E is better than D-18 and D-35, but different from D45, D42, and similar to D28 with a bit more treble and articulate sound. The D45 and D42 have pretty heavy bass.

The 710 is just too good for it to fight against. It could be the wood combo plays a part, but I believe it is because of age. The only way my 810E can keep up with the 710 is when I strum/bang on them. I believe it is because Sitka is better than Engelmann to bang on.

Last edited by Rinaz; 07-15-2020 at 02:57 AM.
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  #18  
Old 07-15-2020, 03:49 AM
fregly fregly is offline
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I agree with Silly Moustache. When they are new new guitars sound quite bad; as when the guitar is first strung up and there is still a strong glue smell. They can sound quite different even within an hr of hard playing. Then this levels off. What is happening I have no idea. When people wax poetic about a just finished guitar I am suspicious. Excitement coloring their hearing I suspect.

*Oh I missed Wades observations on this on the first pg.

Last edited by fregly; 07-15-2020 at 04:02 AM.
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  #19  
Old 07-15-2020, 09:22 AM
Goodallboy Goodallboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
All of them and none of them.

Much of it is subjective: most of it doesn't really matter. It is academic.

Buying, now, a guitar that doesn't sound like what you want it to now, in the hopes that it will someday "open-up" and sound like what you want, is foolish. If you don't like the sound now, don't buy it: find one that sounds now how you like. If you have a "dud" now and expect that it will magically become something it is not as it ages, you'll most likely be disappointed. "Good" instruments sound good from the moment they are first strung. Some will sound better as they age. "Bad" instruments rarely transform into "good" ones as they age.

The "tone" - responsiveness, overtones, etc. - of many guitars do change over time. One cannot predict how - or if - a particular guitar will change and without some objective baseline, how - or if - a guitar has changed as it ages is speculative.

At any stage in a guitar's life, it simply is what it is: it sounds like what it sounds like.
Mr. Tauber once again, tells it exactly as it is.

One must realize that discussion groups create myths and misinformation to be repeated to the point they gain credibility among those following said discussions. You can’t convince someone who then believes they’ve heard a guitar mysteriously “open up”.

Most mass produced guitars I’ve owned were great one week, slightly different another week, and crappy a few weeks later. Most people own these instruments and if you notice, post comments stating those oddities quite often.

I once owned a great sounding HD-28 that went from great to crap seemingly overnight. Is that “reverse opening up”? I didn’t consult a guitar group, I got rid of it ASAP.

There are FAR more unstable, unreliable, unplayed before they’re bought based on more discussion venues from someone who didn’t like the tone, than there are great sounding, consistently brilliant guitars. Those guitar create questions of opening up, humidity variations, which string works best, what nut material will make it brighter, etc..
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  #20  
Old 07-15-2020, 10:21 AM
brandall10 brandall10 is offline
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As a counterpoint, some folks don't like the sound of a well-played or older guitar (looking at you Mr. James Taylor).

Also one of the most esteemed vintage Martin hounds, Eric Schoenberg, posted to UMGF once about a C-2 conversion he had done that ended up being one of the best guitars he ever had - that it really hung with the better actual prewar OMs.

He sold it after owning it for several years as its seemed to lose the magic as the top wore in... something about how it lost its pop or just sounded too sweet for him. I tried googling this but couldn't find the post, it was deep in the bowels of some thread on C-2 conversions.
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Last edited by brandall10; 07-15-2020 at 04:02 PM.
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  #21  
Old 07-15-2020, 02:16 PM
Alan Carruth Alan Carruth is online now
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Thanks Wade, as usual.

As I say, from what I can tell from actual objective measurements, the changes are always of the same nature; the top 'loosens up' and the bass tone gets stronger. If the guitar starts out with a 'tight' sound, as many do, it's likely to get better, but if it's 'loose' at the start it won't.
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  #22  
Old 07-15-2020, 02:23 PM
Dru Edwards Dru Edwards is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6L6 View Post
Not sure if there's a definite answer to your question.

But I would NEVER buy a guitar hoping that it will sound better "when it opens up".
+1.

Bob Taylor (Taylor Guitars) has two thoughts on guitars opening up... one is after a few weeks of playing and the other is after years of playing.
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  #23  
Old 07-15-2020, 02:32 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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I'm gonna throw another clog in the gear works. For those who buy the "opening up" theories, how do you know the changes are the guitar changing and not your hearing changing?
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2023 Iris ND-200 maple/adi
2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood
2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce

along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos.

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  #24  
Old 07-15-2020, 03:05 PM
fregly fregly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
I'm gonna throw another clog in the gear works. For those who buy the "opening up" theories, how do you know the changes are the guitar changing and not your hearing changing?
Not just sound. The response changes.
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  #25  
Old 07-15-2020, 03:05 PM
Greenstar Greenstar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodallboy View Post
Mr. Tauber once again, tells it exactly as it is.

One must realize that discussion groups create myths and misinformation to be repeated to the point they gain credibility among those following said discussions. You can’t convince someone who then believes they’ve heard a guitar mysteriously “open up”.

Most mass produced guitars I’ve owned were great one week, slightly different another week, and crappy a few weeks later. Most people own these instruments and if you notice, post comments stating those oddities quite often.

I once owned a great sounding HD-28 that went from great to crap seemingly overnight. Is that “reverse opening up”? I didn’t consult a guitar group, I got rid of it ASAP.

There are FAR more unstable, unreliable, unplayed before they’re bought based on more discussion venues from someone who didn’t like the tone, than there are great sounding, consistently brilliant guitars. Those guitar create questions of opening up, humidity variations, which string works best, what nut material will make it brighter, etc..
I once owned a great sounding HD-28 that went from great to crap seemingly overnight. Is that “reverse opening up”? I didn’t consult a guitar group, I got rid of it ASAP.

I had a beautiful 1989 HD-28 that I had a similar experience with. I bought it from a songwriter in Nashville and it was amazing when I first got it home. Big, full and surprisingly balanced from the huge bass to the fine trebles. It lived out on a stand in my climate controlled music room for a few years until it lost it's perch to a newer Gibson that I thought recorded a bit better. Once it was relegated to it's case it didn't take very long to head in the other direction sound wise. I would pull it out, set it up and change the strings if needed but the magic was gone. Did I put the beautiful tone to sleep in it's case for all that time or was that tone what I had heard all along? The hog backed Gibson was obviously brighter and my drummer's ears appreciated the top end a lot more than the old Martin.
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  #26  
Old 07-15-2020, 03:23 PM
bufflehead bufflehead is offline
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I've had a guitar open up dramatically, and some that never seem to change.
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  #27  
Old 07-15-2020, 03:28 PM
Silly Moustache Silly Moustache is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fregly View Post
Not just sound. The response changes.
Yes, that's true ... difficult to define, but, yes.
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Just an old Limey acoustic guitarist, Dobrolist, mandolier and singer.
I'm here to try to help and advise and I offer one to one lessons/meetings/mentoring via Zoom!
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  #28  
Old 07-15-2020, 03:36 PM
brandall10 brandall10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
I'm gonna throw another clog in the gear works. For those who buy the "opening up" theories, how do you know the changes are the guitar changing and not your hearing changing?
Just play a random sampling of some model with a regular spruce top and another with a torrefied top. The change in feel and sound should be pretty evident on average.
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  #29  
Old 07-15-2020, 03:41 PM
FoxHound4690 FoxHound4690 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brandall10 View Post
Just play a random sampling of some model with a regular spruce top and another with a torrefied top. The change in feel and sound should be pretty evident on average.
Best thing i've found is to walk into a music shop with a friend or a family member who plays or get a sales assistant to help you...., pick up two different guitars and strum the exact same chord, I usually just use a standard E major or something like that, and listen for its resonance and its sustain and the volume. the two guitars will sound different and hearing them one straight after the other is a great way to get a feel for what kind of tone you like. The person who sold me my two Maton's both times helped me do exactly this. A small 808 style body with a cedar top and a dreadnought with a spruce top the difference is actually quite big in tone. and Maton string their guitars with the same strings so that's why i personally found it to be such a good way to really dig in and hear the woods do the talking.
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  #30  
Old 07-15-2020, 08:41 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxHound4690 View Post
I usually just use a standard E major or something like that, and listen for its resonance and its sustain and the volume. the two guitars will sound different and hearing them one straight after the other is a great way to get a feel for what kind of tone you like.
I do that as well, as one of a number of tone assessment tests. I'm listening for the presence, or not, of a G#, the pitch of the first string, fourth fret. It is a pitch that is not being played (fretted): it is an overtone that is there or not, more audible or not, depending on the guitar.
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