Negotiating with an Authorized Dealer???

Originally Posted by jim1960

No, but that's the point. There are some places you haggle and some you don't. Your statement, "I guess I don't really understand why the consumer should have "negotiating power" when it comes to guitars. I don't haggle at the grocery store or the gas pump or Home Depot," sounds like when you buy something at a store, you never haggle. If that's the case, you've likely overpaid significantly for many things (i.e. mattresses, furniture, carpeting, high end electronics, and instruments of course).

It's true there are some places like supermarkets where no haggling takes place, but there are other places where it happens routinely and is expected. In those places, extra room is allotted in the sticker price so the salesperson can give the consumer a "great deal."

I know how it works, thank you. I don't buy guitars from dealers who play that game, and I don't understand why anyone would.

[stephenT]

I'm sure it's tedious but I remind the storeowner/salesman that I'm a bargain shopper and just like him I'm a fan of the best price I can get.

But in my mind there's guitars then there's everything else, I want to pay the least I can that day for "gear" like mics,.. stomp boxes, studio stuff, etc. Each unit is the same as the next (we figure). guitars are more personal, we like what we like and they are not all the same.

a company like Collings/Waterloo will pull a dealership if they sell under an agreed discount too often. And I'm generally interested smaller builder stuff, at times you gotta respect a modestly discounted price.

Find a company you like to deal with and just ask for their best price, be nice, be personal. Know what a good price is before you ask and be ready to buy. Don't waste their time.

[RagtopGT]

Originally Posted by stephenT

.....a company like Collings/Waterloo will pull a dealership if they sell under an agreed discount too often.

I don't see the legality of this. A dealer pays the builder for a product to be placed in inventory. The dealer then sells the product he now owns in a private transaction. And if he wants to give away that product, that's entirely the dealer's prerogative. The manufacturer is out of the loop at that point.

Could you be confusing 'discount' with a contractually bound advertised price structure such as Martin's MAP?

[Thumbwrapper]

Originally Posted by Dru Edwards

Show commitment that you're ready to buy on the spot and treat them with respect.

Yup, pretty simple eh?

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by RagtopGT

I don't see the legality of this. A dealer pays the builder for a product to be placed in inventory. The dealer then sells the product he now owns in a private transaction. And if he wants to give away that product, that's entirely the dealer's prerogative. The manufacturer is out of the loop at that point.

Could you be confusing 'discount' with a contractually bound advertised price structure such as Martin's MAP?

1. It could be written into the sales contract.
2. The inventory could be consignment by the builder and not "sold" to the dealer.
or
3. a contract to be a dealer is not perpetual. If the dealer is deemed to be acting in ways the builder deems as antithetical to the builder, they can simply not renew the sales contract when it comes up for renewal.

[RickRS]

Originally Posted by RagtopGT

That's not entirely true, at least in Martin's case. Martin dealers are bound by contract to advertise no lower than MAP (Minimum Advertised Price). Essentially what you see on Martin's website is MSRP and no one pays that. But Martin does not dictate discounts that the dealer may privately offer.
That's entirely up to the dealer and in many cases Certified On-Line Martin dealers are offering 39-40% off MSRP, provide free shipping, no sales tax if shipped out of state (in most states), and favorable return policies.

Dealer inventory prices may depend on their volume of business.

Way back in Gibson's Norlin days I was part of the Norlin company. That's when I found out that dealers' cost depended on volume of guitars they ordered from the Gibson factory. As a Norlin company employee I got Gibson's maximum dealer discount as a company benefit. My "maximum dealer discount" was better than what the one Gibson dealer in my town had to pay for their inventory.

Gibson did limit employee purchases to ensure we didn't start selling their guitars out of the trunk of our cars.

[EverettWilliams]

Originally Posted by RagtopGT

I don't see the legality of this. A dealer pays the builder for a product to be placed in inventory. The dealer then sells the product he now owns in a private transaction. And if he wants to give away that product, that's entirely the dealer's prerogative. The manufacturer is out of the loop at that point.

Could you be confusing 'discount' with a contractually bound advertised price structure such as Martin's MAP?

Until 2007, this was illegal prize fixing, but in Leegin Creative, the Supreme Court overruled the Dr. Miles precedent and the result is that resale price management is no longer per se illegal. Feels stupid to me too, but SCOTUS outranks me.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by Willie Voltaire

I know how it works, thank you. I don't buy guitars from dealers who play that game, and I don't understand why anyone would.

That "game" is simply how many guitar sales in retail shops are negotiated. Being a member here, you're privy to information and discounts from certain sellers, so you can choose to eliminate the haggling by limiting your custom to those shops who will give discounts to AGF members up front. So going back to your original statement which was, "I guess I don't really understand why the consumer should have "negotiating power" when it comes to guitars," the answer is because they're not privy to the information advantage you have by being a member here.

[guitar george]

Originally Posted by jim1960

It's true there are some places like supermarkets where no haggling takes place, but there are other places where it happens routinely and is expected. In those places, extra room is allotted in the sticker price so the salesperson can give the consumer a "great deal."

Where the most overpricing and haggling takes place is with appliance sales.

[stephenT]

I see the reason and I expect it's legal. We're currently shopping for a Stressless couch, same deal. It's to protect dealerships from just exactly what this thread is about. I frankly think that's a builders prerogative.

But, thanks for your reply and no, I'm not confused about MAP, which btw is not just a Martin thing.

Originally Posted by RagtopGT

I don't see the legality of this. A dealer pays the builder for a product to be placed in inventory. The dealer then sells the product he now owns in a private transaction. And if he wants to give away that product, that's entirely the dealer's prerogative. The manufacturer is out of the loop at that point.

Could you be confusing 'discount' with a contractually bound advertised price structure such as Martin's MAP?

Originally Posted by jim1960

Being a member here, you're privy to information and discounts from certain sellers, so you can choose to eliminate the haggling by limiting your custom to those shops who will give discounts to AGF members up front.

I was getting fair prices without haggling long before there was an AGF, from competitive local shops that wanted to cultivate long-term customers. I still buy from them.

I get that price negotiation is part of the game for some people, but it doesn't have to be. And btw, Maury's gave me a below-MAP price on a Martin before I even joined here. No secret handshake required!

[EverettWilliams]

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to discuss payment method after negotiating the price. That said, I don’t bring it up unless they do. Unless previously discussed, my assumption is that I will pay with my card that gives me 2.63% cash back. If they’re itching to avoid card fees (and many are and offer discounts for cash purchases), I’m willing to entertain it. They can’t charge you more for paying with a card but they’re generally allowed to give a cash discount. To the extent that the discount exceeds 2.63%, it’s in my best interest to take it.

Still, as a matter of good form, I’d bring in all of these points to a negotiation - I have to pay tax, they don’t have to ship, and I can pay in a way that is less costly to them. I’m not really ever going for the kill shot, though, mostly trying to secure a good deal and, where possible, create surplus value for both parties.

[DesertTwang]

On my last purchase on a new Martin dreadnaught from an authorized dealer, I was offered a discount from the street price that was substantially bigger than what I expected, so I never questioned it and gladly accepted the deal, as soon as I was convinced that I wanted to buy that guitar.

Perhaps the fact that I had been taking lessons from a teacher affiliated with that store and therefore visited it often played a role. That said, I had never before bought a guitar from them, only little things here and there. Still, with anything I buy, I try to exhaust my local options before reverting to ordering online. I like to think that loyalty and being friendly with the store staff over a long time pays off.

[DesertTwang]

Originally Posted by RagtopGT

I don't see the legality of this. A dealer pays the builder for a product to be placed in inventory. The dealer then sells the product he now owns in a private transaction. And if he wants to give away that product, that's entirely the dealer's prerogative. The manufacturer is out of the loop at that point.

Could you be confusing 'discount' with a contractually bound advertised price structure such as Martin's MAP?

I used to be affiliated with a scuba store, and I know for a fact that some manufacturers simply don't allow dealers to discount their products, or at least not beyond a very precise margin. In the particular case of the diving gear manufacturer in question, the store owner told us that no discounts were allowed ever. And true enough, I never saw equipment from that manufacturer offered at discounts anywhere.

I think the way it works is pretty straightforward: the dealer can only be an authorized dealer for the manufacturer as long as he/she abides by the manufacturer's terms, or they offer their own discounts and sale practices and will no longer receive merchandise from that manufacturer. Simple as that.

Some brands appear to follow this to an extreme, for example Apple. Whenever I searched for Apple products, I couldn't help but notice how the price is the exact same across the entire distribution landscape, down to the dollar.

[619TF]

Originally Posted by RagtopGT

I don't see the legality of this. A dealer pays the builder for a product to be placed in inventory. The dealer then sells the product he now owns in a private transaction. And if he wants to give away that product, that's entirely the dealer's prerogative. The manufacturer is out of the loop at that point.

Could you be confusing 'discount' with a contractually bound advertised price structure such as Martin's MAP?

As an authorized dealer the manufacturer is never really "out of the loop". It's totally legal as a private party contract.