Upgrading from Zoom H4n?

[tobethelight]

Hi everyone,
I could do with some help improving my recordings, I play solo guitar, and have been using a Zoom H4n until now. I only post on youtube, but I'd like to improve the quality as the H4n internal mics aren't great. I have heard some great things using external mics into an H4n - Doug Young's stuff sounds beautiful:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4gEYfNXORs

So if I could get a little closer to that I'd love it. I saved up some money recently, so have a budget of about £300-350

To give an idea of what I have so far:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r1Hbik-qgI

Keeping in mind I am a complete recording novice, is it worth spending more money? Last year I did use my friend's equipment (two pretty cheap mics, can't remember brand/models) and it does sound quite a bit better i think, so I would like to create that myself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKqKf5Gn6bM
Does anyone have any mic recommendations/advice?

Thanks for any help!
Anton

[Fran Guidry]

I would suggest that you ask Doug to record a piece with his external mic setup and the internal mics at the same time. Then you could better judge how much improvement the external mics provide.

When I listened to your two samples I heard two very different styles of performance and mixing rather than the difference between internal and external mics.

Fran

[tobethelight]

Thanks for the reply, I really don't want to trouble anyone too much.
It's true the pieces aren't very similar, but to be honest I don't know what difference mixing makes, I'll ask my friend.

More generally I'd like to get closer to the sound of the second recording, but I guess my ears aren't yet so sensitive, so it's difficult for me to know what to do specifically.

[Doug Young]

Hi Anton, I think the biggest difference from using external mics with the Zoom is being able to place them differently. In your second video (and mine) the mics are spaced more widely, which gives you a bigger, wider sound than the XY setup on the internal Zoom mics. There's probably some improvement from better mics, but it can be subtle, and it's one of those diminishing return things, where you spend a lot to gain a little. One thing that may be helping with my recordings is that I'm using hypercardiods, which have a little tighter pattern, and perhaps helps keep out the sound of my room a little. But that might be hard to get with your budget. Being able to dial in a sound by carefully placing each mic might help tho. I feel like your 2nd video has also a little less distant sound, like maybe the mics were closer, or maybe the room sounded better (is it a different room?) You might just try experimenting with the Zoom's position. I'd try closer - I have good luck with a spot centered on the soundhole, but raised up to around the top of the guitar. Try maybe 8 inches away.

Excellent playing, by the way! You have Spiritual Groove nailed!

[tobethelight]

Hi Doug,
Many thanks for taking the time to reply, I'm a big fan of your work. I'm aware I wouldn't be able to do expensive mics any justice, but I'll try to experiment with more positions. They were recorded in different rooms, the second was more echoey/reflective as far as I can remember.
Do you think simply experimenting with the stereo mics on the H4n would yield significantly better results, or is it worth splashing out a couple of hundred pounds for some more adaptable microphones?
I certainly moved the zoom around quite a bit when I was first recording, but it's pretty heavy and not so easy to maneuver.
Thanks again, Anton

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by tobethelight

Do you think simply experimenting with the stereo mics on the H4n would yield significantly better results, or is it worth splashing out a couple of hundred pounds for some more adaptable microphones?

I think you'll more than do justice to any gear you have. I think you can get a better sound from the Zoom with some experimenting, but external mics will give you more placement options, which can help. yet another option is to use the Zoom mics, but plug a pickup into the extra Zoom inputs, and play with mixing that in. Antoine sometimes blends in a pickup, so you might get closer to his sound that way. Worth a try anyway.

[anton]

Hey there is someone else named Anton on this forum. Don't see that to much.

[tobethelight]

Originally Posted by anton

Hey there is someone else named Anton on this forum. Don't see that to much.

Haha yeah, great name!

Doug, as you mentioned the pickup I did actually include it in the Spiritual Groove recording for a bit of extra bass.

I think I'll fiddle around with the zoom mic placement options, and if I'm still not happy with the results I guess I'll be back asking for some microphone recommendations.

Thanks again

[Meffy]

On the subject of getting a wider stereo image: One thing that's not immediately obvious about the H4n is that the built-in mics can be twisted around so their axes are offset by 120 degrees instead of the usual 90 degrees. The elements are mounted slightly off-axis within the outer shells, so when you rotate the shells they point just a bit inward or outward, depending on the position. Each mic has a tiny "90" and "120" at the bottom to show which way it's oriented.

The tradeoff, as always with a wider stereo pair, is the possibility of the "hole in the middle" effect. On playback you may hear dramatic left and right but not as much in the center, so it sounds like you're hearing two separate speakers rather than an organized soundfield. The extent depends on the type of source material, the distance to the mics, and such.