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  #16  
Old 09-24-2009, 08:55 PM
tadol tadol is offline
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There was a thread a while back about a visit to a guitar maker in Vietnam(?) - in those pictures they showed wood stickered and stacked so that natural breezes could get through the pile to help it dry, and help prevent mold or fungal problems. There were also picture of sides and backs stickered and tied to clamp them flat while they dried. They had the wood up in the eaves of a galvanized shed, where the sun could heat the metal foor and then the wood up, and "bake" the trapped moisture out. The humidity does not prevent wood from drying - it does slow the process, which can be a very good thing. Many drying and tempering kilns actually inject steam in to regulate the process. Simple solar drying sheds are more than capable of allowing the wood to season, as long as it is not rushed and is carefully watched.

The greater concern is bringing a guitar to another area that has very different humidity. Thats where quartersawn stock can be a great advantage - the wood will move more evenly and regularly. The wild grain that is so popular on hi-end custom guitars can cause huge problems when subjected to those kinds of changes, which is why wood storage and careful control of the building environments is so critical. I don't know how it is handled by overseas builders, but I'm sure its a major concern if they are using solid wood.

But I am quite sure there are a number of luthiers who can give us all a much better idea of the issues and concerns of humidity during the build.

Tad
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  #17  
Old 09-25-2009, 07:59 AM
JohnJayPl JohnJayPl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tadol View Post
There is a whole field of study on this, but as I understand it, there are 2 types of moisture in wood - the moisture between the cells, and the moisture inside the cells. The "free" moisture has to be removed slowly, since loosing it too quickly will cause all kinds of cracking as the "trapped" moisture will keep the cells from shrinking. So you need to regulate the loss of the free moisture to allow the trapped moisture a chance to migrate out of the cells, and then slowly bring the whole piece to an equilibrium level.

When you "bake" wood, you are helping to force trapped moisture out of the cells. This trapped moisture would eventually work its way out over a period of time, but you are essentially forcing the natural process.

Trapped moisture does not get replaced - the cells do not re-integrate moisture into themselves. The free moisture is easily replaced or lost depending on the relative humidity of its environment. You slow this process by applying finish to wood, but it continues to happen.

Its usually easier to dry wood out than it is to keep it properly humidified. If you're in that dry an environment, you need to make sure you can control that or you will end up with alot of firewood quickly -

Tad
It is the bound moisture that is replaced or lost depending on the the relative humidity. This continues to happen to wood. As the wood reacts to changes in RH it either looses or gains bound moisture, when it looses it, it shrinks, when it gains it, it expands.

Baking the wood, removes most of the bound moisture and shrinks the wood to it's nearly dry state. After baking, the wood is put in an RH environment that will result in the desired amount of bound water at the equilibrium point. The wood returns to nearly the state it started in if it is put in the same RH that it was in before baking. I don't understand why it doesn't completely return to the state it started in- if someone has a detailed explanation of this, I'd love to hear it.

John
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  #18  
Old 02-19-2010, 04:07 PM
Jeff M Jeff M is offline
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Wrong thread
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  #19  
Old 02-19-2010, 06:36 PM
runamuck runamuck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rattletrap View Post
I could sticker up some wood, wax the ends and simply set it out on the driveway in the summer and it would dry out in a couple days.
Craig
Don't do that - not in Victorville, anyway. You can wax the end grain all you want but you're going to have alot of degrade in your kind of heat.

Keep it in total shade and keep hot air from blowing directly on it. Keep it covered and thoroughly seal the end grain. With your summer high temperatures and low humidity you'll still lose alot more wood than in a
moderate environment.

Seasoning takes time and there's no way around it as far as I know.
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  #20  
Old 02-19-2010, 07:09 PM
Jeff M Jeff M is offline
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ATTENTION:

This is an old thread I accidently pulled up today (Friday, Feb 19).
Feel free to post to it...but realize you may be trying to converse with somebody who hasn't visited the forum for months.
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  #21  
Old 06-16-2013, 03:43 AM
Pink Panther Pink Panther is offline
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Quote: "A while back I read a research article on why Stradivarius violins sound so good. This article proposed that the reason that the violins had sweetened was due to the cyclical nature of the seasons wetting and drying the wood."

- Snipped for Shortness -

Quote : "I'm not sure if they had case humidifiers back then..."





The best I can tell you is that the water content of the dried wood used on Stradivari Instruments that have undergone testing, was reduced from approximately 12 per cent to between 6 to 8 per cent, and at the 50 per cent relative humidity, typical of Cremona's humid climatic conditions.

So in regard to Humidity at least, it would appear that the prevailing climatic conditions for Stradivari from what has been able to be determined by Scientific Analysis, would place them an absolutely ideal position for an Instrument Makers point of view.

My understanding is that the fine people at Martin (big heads up and thank you for superb information and service from Darrin at Martin Customer Service) get their woods water content down to an average figure after initial seasoning, then to approximately 14 per cent after kilning and finally re-seasoning them, to achieve approximately 6 per cent.

So Stradivarius Instruments that have undergone testing would seem to have been made in the same ball park as Martins controlled conditions, at least regarding Humidity.

Absolutely Ideal in fact for Guitar Building if you judge the ideal Relative Humidity Range to be 45% to 55%.





In the City of my Birth, there resides the oldest museum in all of Western Civilisation.

They have some rare Stradivari Instruments and certainly the most Highly Valued and Expensive Instrument in the World.

There is a Stradivari Guitar here, which although there are others that exist elsewhere around the world, some have been very, very heavily repaired, whilst this example is in fine condition, plus there's the only Stradivari Harp in existence.

They have begun to display a collection of 20 Stradivari Violin Family Instruments, (I thought it was 22 in all, but I keep hearing different figures) anyway, the largest collection of Stradivari's ever seen in the U.K. Many have never before been on Public Display.

And there's been a Concert featuring them in the famous Sheldonian Theatre where as well in Ensemble, they can be heard singly utilising unaccompanied music by Bach and Paganini on a number of Stradivarius violins, and expert discussion of the unique qualities of the instruments.

http://www.musicatoxford.com/Concert...213/Strad.html





"The Ashmolean Museum in Oxford, UK, is to hold a major Stradivari exhibition this summer.

'Stradivarius', which runs from 13 June to 11 August, will feature 21 Stradivaris drawn from international and private collections, London's Royal Academy of Music and the Ashmolean's own collection.

The exhibition has been curated by Jon Whiteley, the Ashmolean's senior curator of European art, in collaboration with Charles Beare, who has stated that the instruments on show will be 'the very finest and best-preserved examples'.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVel-ilvXks


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4kr97TQnh8




The Ashmolean is famously home to the 1716 'Messiah' Stradivari, and also counts the 1683 'Cipriani Potter' (pictured) in its collection.

Visitors to the exhibition can also expect to see the 'Viotti' violin of 1709 and the 'Batta-Piatigorsky' cello of 1714. A full list of the instruments being displayed can be viewed below.

The exhibition will feature a display of Stradivari's tools, models and patterns, on loan from the Stradivari Museum in Cremona. Luthier workshops, expert tours and a series of performances will take place during the run of the exhibition.

James Ehnes began the events programme with a solo recital on 14 June at Oxford's Sheldonian Theatre, where he'll play Bach and Paganini on a number of Stradivari violins.







The full list of Stradivari instruments on display

1666 violin

1683 ‘Cipriani Potter’ violin

1688 ‘Hill’ guitar

1694 ‘Benecke’ violin

1696 ‘Archinto’ viola

1698 ‘Baron Knoop’ violin

1700 ‘Cristiani’ cello

1700-1710 mandolin

1709 ‘Viotti’ violin

1709 ‘La pucelle’ violin

1711 ‘Parke’ violin

1712 ‘Fountaine’ violin

1715 ‘Boissier’ violin

1713 ‘Bass of Spain’ cello

1714 ‘Batta–Piatigorsky’ cello

1715 ‘Alard’ violin

1716 ‘Messiah’ violin

1717 Tyrrell violin

1721 ‘Lady Blunt’

1733 ‘Kreisler’ violin

c.1734 ‘Habeneck’ violin"




Just in case you missed it...

"The exhibition will feature a display of Stradivari's Tools.

Models and Patterns, on loan from the Stradivari Museum in Cremona.

Luthier workshops, expert tours and a series of performances will take place during the run of the exhibition."

A relative of mine is one of the finest Violin Maker/Repairmen in the U.K. and like me will be visiting at the Exhibition.

He is a Good Player himself, as well as having a reputation as a Go To Individual for Stradivarius, Guarnerius and Amati Instruments.

This was mainly because he is not simply able to Repair Instruments. Buts it's fair to say his Greater Gift, is that of being able to make the Repair completely invisible. Entirely undetectable to the eye.

So I think it's a good opportunity for anyone that is interested in the Finest Musical Instruments in the World, that want to know how they were made, and even how to care for Fine Instruments they want to last. And to meet, talk with and find out from the World's Greatest Authorities on the Subject.



These are the Ticket Prices

http://www.ashmolean.org/exhibitions/stradivarius/

Here is the Official Movie about the Exhibition (same as You Tube above).

http://www.ashmolean.org/exhibitions...ivarius/video/




As I mentioned. There a Stradivarius Guitar in the exhibition.

Here's what a Stradivarius Guitar sounds like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=xQzHYlwIv2Q





Quote: "the violins had sweetened was due to the cyclical nature of the seasons wetting and drying the wood."




When the great innovator and guitarist Les Paul died.

For The Music Industry I published a Tribute for those who admired him I as did.

It is taken from a work by the Poet Shelly, whose has a magnificent memorial in the City, in which I was born.



I hope you enjoy it, appreciate its relevance to the Guitar..





A Tribute to Les Paul


The artist who this idol wrought
To echo all harmonious thought,

Felled a tree, while on the steep
The woods were in their winter sleep,

Rocked in that repose divine
On the wind-swept Apennine;

And dreaming, some of Autumn past,
And some of Spring approaching fast,

And some of April buds and showers,
And some of songs in July bowers,

And all of love; and so this tree, -
O that such our death may be! -

Died in sleep, and felt no pain,
To live in happier form again:

From which, beneath Heaven's fairest star,
The artist wrought this loved Guitar;

And taught it justly to reply
To all who question skilfully

In language gentle as thine own;
Whispering in enamoured tone

Sweet oracles of woods and dells,
And summer winds in sylvan cells;

- For it had learnt all harmonies
Of the plains and of the skies,

Of the forests and the mountains,
And the many-voiced fountains;

The clearest echoes of the hills,
The softest notes of falling rills,

The melodies of birds and bees,
The murmuring of summer seas,

And pattering rain, and breathing dew,
And airs of evening; and it knew

That seldom-heard mysterious sound
Which, driven on its diurnal round,

As it floats through boundless day,
Our world enkindles on its way:

- All this it knows, but will not tell
To those who cannot question well

The Spirit that inhabits it;
It talks according to the wit

Of its companions; and no more
Is heard than has been felt before

By those who tempt it to betray
These secrets of an elder day.

But, sweetly as its answers will
Flatter hands of perfect skill,

It keeps its highest holiest tone
For one beloved Friend alone.







The point of this poem, and by analogy, its relevance to the thread.

Is that we never really die, we hopefully go on to Live in Heaven in another, Spiritual Form.

Likewise, the Tree never really dies, it goes on to live again by virtue of its Creator, in another, Magnificently Spiritual Form, as a Guitar!

Every day, the wood the Guitar is made from, breathes in and out, just as we do. The Guitar, takes on moisture, just as we do, and gives it out, exactly as we do.



The point is, the wood metamorphosises, and continues to express a life of its own!

If it didn't, the original poster, wouldn't be asking this question.





Quote : "I'm not sure if they had case humidifiers back then..."





I thank you, for this thread, and the important and interesting topic of Wood Seasoning.

There are historical hydrometers about as well as Musical Instruments.

But personally, I greatly doubt that Stradivarius himself.

Would have had very much use for them.

For the reasons given above.




P
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  #22  
Old 06-16-2013, 03:57 AM
dneal dneal is offline
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A lot of necroposting today...

I would imagine a luthier uses seasoned wood for the same reason any other woodworker does - stability.

As for sound/age/tone, and Stradivari in particular, here's an interesting article on the subject

Quote:
In the world of violins, the names Stradivari and Guarneri are sacred. For three centuries, violin-makers and scientists have studied the instruments made by these Italian craftsmen. So far no one has figured out what makes their sound different. But a new study now suggests maybe they aren't so different after all...

...a professional violinist could tell the difference, right?

Well, a research team recently tried to find out. They gathered professional violinists in a hotel room in Indianapolis. They had six violins — two Strads, a Guarneri and three modern instruments. Everybody wore dark goggles so they couldn't see which violin was which.

Then the researchers told the musicians: These are all fine violins and at least one is a Stradivarius. Play, then judge the instruments.

Joseph Curtin, a violin-maker from Michigan, was one of the researchers. "There was no evidence that people had any idea what they were playing," he says. "That really surprised me."

Curtin says of the 17 players who were asked to choose which were old Italians, "Seven said they couldn't, seven got it wrong, and only three got it right."...

...Fritz says some of the players told her they were certain which were the new violins and which were the old Italians.

"'Ah, it's just a bit too new for me'," she recalled one musician saying. "And it was a Strad. Another one said, 'Ah, I love the sound of this one, it really has the sound of an old Italian, ah, just so warm.' And it was a brand new violin. "

When Fritz asked the players which violins they'd like to take home, almost two-thirds chose a violin that turned out to be new. She's found the same in tests with other musical instruments. "I haven't found any consistency whatsoever," she says. "Never. People don't agree. They just like different things."

In fact, the only statistically obvious trend in the choices was that one of the Stradivarius violins was the least favorite, and one of the modern instruments was slightly favored.

Now, what does that mean for all the years of research studying the old violins — the design, the wood, the varnish, even the glue? If no one can tell the difference, what's the point?

Well, Fritz says maybe researchers should focus more on people than old wood.
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  #23  
Old 06-16-2013, 04:33 AM
Tom West Tom West is offline
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It means the name on the peghead has a big influence on how we react to the instrument. Blind test seem to point in that direction.
Tom
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  #24  
Old 06-16-2013, 06:01 AM
FrankS FrankS is offline
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Another thread that has some interesting science but the lore and bad science overshadows the facts.

As a starting point, it would not be good to take a freshly cut piece of wood and building with it. Not a guitar and not a house. There are significant changes in the wood as it is allowed to naturally lose its volatiles (mostly water) and and rearrange its structure (mostly compaction).

These changes can happen rather quickly with time on thin pieces of wood that have good air circulation around them. As stated by others, there are builders that try to accelerate the process by heating and drying in kilns. While this does dry out the wood, it also induces other non-natural changes in the wood. If you want proof of this, heat up a raw egg in a pan up to 200F and see what happens. It denatures (cooks) and does so in short order. The materials in wood do the same thing but not on such a visible level so it is hidden by the opacity already in the wood. Continued heating at these kind of temperatures will cause the changes to continue and eventually the changes will become quite profound as in the case of torrified wood. Some builders use the torrified wood with good success.

Wood that is aged like in a true aged instrument is much more difficult to come by. For one, the wood for a guitar top and a vastly different age from the center to the edge. One edge is old grow that often exceeds 100 years and the other edge is barely a year old when cut. A year of seasoning does not much change this age gradient across a piece of wood. Time and normal seasonal variations are needed to season wood as nature would.

Fiddling with the combination of seasonal elements can make a difference though. Slow but more frequent cycling of narrow ranges of humidity, temperature and barometric pressure normally encountered in nature can speed things up. Normally this process is diffusion controlled which an excruciatingly slow process but by micro controlling the environment, this process can be sped up between 10 and 100 times.

I have been working with John Griffin at Old Standard Wood (supplier of most or all of the top quality Red Spruce for top builders like Martin, Collings, and the like.) The results after 6 months to a year of this more natural form of seasoning is quite encouraging. There is no color change of the wood since it is not heated beyond normal forest temperatures. The permanent weight loss of the wood is on the order of 1% total which is quite remarkable and similar to what would be expected from a piece of wood that had been sitting around for around 80 years.

We have some of this cycled seasoned product in hand now and it exhibits a sweeter, broader tap tone and greater cross grain stiffness. It also is more stable with temperature and humidity changes that will reduce the chance of environmental damage and should reduce the "tubbiness" of the sound in high humidity environments. A few pieces of this wood is currently being incorporated into a handful of guitars at two major builders as I write. The Collings guitars will be available initially through the OSW site and I am not certain yet of the other builder's distribution path.

More when more information is available.

Frank Sanns
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  #25  
Old 01-26-2019, 06:39 PM
skypeace skypeace is offline
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Smile Really great thread...

An extremely valuable and timeless thread, shoot me for wanting to keep it alive, but it reminded me of so many things I grew up knowing about wood and keeps me focused on how to maintain and not worry about the movement and seasoning of wood.

I recently had a situation where a recently purchased guitar I love had a fret rise a little from the local humidity changes. I got all bent out of shape when about three notes on the #1 string 12th fret and above became dead. I called Alvarez support and talked to Tom who explained that the problem could be related to humidity and climate, but I could send it in under warranty to be handled.

His confidence in his product coupled with common sense regarding wood movement had me find the raised fret, press it back in properly and done. Notes ringing clearly. The guitar is a MDA66CESHB which sounds gloriously heavenly and is a really foxy looking solid body mahogany dread with cutaway and some minor bling.
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