The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > General Acoustic Guitar Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #46  
Old 08-18-2019, 03:48 AM
AndrewG AndrewG is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Exeter, UK
Posts: 6,823
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zmf View Post
I don't put much stock in guitars waking up or going to sleep, but I'll mention that I had a D-18 with a red spruce top that seemed a bit stiff when fingerpicking. It was best at robust Travis picking tunes. And excelled at flatpicking.

I think what is part of a guitar "waking up" is your fingers "waking up" and getting into the rhythm/style of playing that best suits the guitar. Getting into the correct power and attack behind each finger stroke.

Each guitar is different in what is the best input for optimal output. Perhaps the fingers wake up and adjust more than the guitar wakes up?

But perhaps your impression is different.
I agree with this. It's me that has to 'wake up' and re-adapt not the guitar and, thinking logically, what is there in a guitar which has to be woken? I can't imagine how a guitar would vibrate or respond differently when excited by its strings if left un-played for a day or a month or a year. Bear in mind I'm not referring to 'opening up' which is something entirely different.
__________________
Martin D-18 Standard, 2018
Guild Jumbo Junior flame maple, 2019
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 08-18-2019, 06:17 AM
The Bard Rocks The Bard Rocks is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Mohawk Valley
Posts: 5,016
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Tone Control View Post
It's not that for me, I'm comparing a Goodall TBRD and a Goodall RCJ, before and after using the Tonerite on the TBRD for one hour, it's not me changing my playing technique
I wonder what you'd learn if you put the ToneRiite on the other guitar for an hour and then played it. I keep thinking that the Goodall in question may ask for a slightly different technique which you adapt to unknowlngly.
__________________
The Bard Rocks

Kinnaird 000 Adk/Ziracote
Sexauer L00 Adk/Magnolia
Hatcher Jumbo Bearclaw/"Bacon" Padauk
Leach "Arctos" OM Millenium Sequioa/Macassar Ebony
Goodall Jumbo POC/flamed Mahogany
McAlister baritone Adk/Bubinga
Appollonio 12 POC/Myrtle
MJ Franks Resonator, all Australian Blackwood
'31 National Duolian
banjos of all kinds, mandolin, autoharp, tiple...
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 08-18-2019, 08:19 AM
M Sarad M Sarad is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Bakersfield!!!
Posts: 1,286
Default

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=478712
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 08-18-2019, 09:33 AM
Tony Burns Tony Burns is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Western New York
Posts: 7,020
Default

I have in the past bought a few guitars that were not really broken in -
they came to me pretty much brand new - their prior owners for some reason
didnt bond with them ( i think because they didnt get broken in )

I put in the time - now they shine -one of mine that went threw that was was a Goodall - Yes it does need to be played -all guitars do -

You have to be patient -tone rites work ( I own one -waste of money )
playing it is a task but a worthy task -why i think their a waste of money -is
becasue , I think a guitar should be played -
__________________
wood things with strings on them !
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 08-19-2019, 01:14 AM
Dr Tone Control Dr Tone Control is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 120
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by M Sarad View Post
thanks for that link!
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 08-19-2019, 01:18 AM
Dr Tone Control Dr Tone Control is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 120
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
I agree with this. It's me that has to 'wake up' and re-adapt not the guitar and, thinking logically, what is there in a guitar which has to be woken? I can't imagine how a guitar would vibrate or respond differently when excited by its strings if left un-played for a day or a month or a year. Bear in mind I'm not referring to 'opening up' which is something entirely different.
you'd have to experience this Adirondack-top guitar to believe it I think

I've never experienced anything close to this before, and I play many guitars
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 08-19-2019, 01:22 AM
Dr Tone Control Dr Tone Control is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 120
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks View Post
I wonder what you'd learn if you put the ToneRiite on the other guitar for an hour and then played it. I keep thinking that the Goodall in question may ask for a slightly different technique which you adapt to unknowlngly.
To get the sound I want out of the TBRD before Tonerite I would need to use a plectrum, after Tonerite I can use medium-touch fingerstyle with nails, it's a massive difference.

The previous owner of the RCJ was a convinced user of the tonerite, he said that normally you reach a point where there is no further improvement, and you can risk changing the guitar in a way you dislike with some instruments.

For my RCJ, I think I tried the tonerite previously and noticed no difference, I will try it again
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 08-19-2019, 02:14 AM
Dr Tone Control Dr Tone Control is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 120
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Tone Control View Post
To get the sound I want out of the TBRD before Tonerite I would need to use a plectrum, after Tonerite I can use medium-touch fingerstyle with nails, it's a massive difference.

The previous owner of the RCJ was a convinced user of the tonerite, he said that normally you reach a point where there is no further improvement, and you can risk changing the guitar in a way you dislike with some instruments.

For my RCJ, I think I tried the tonerite previously and noticed no difference, I will try it again
OK, after nearly an hour on the Tonerite for the RCJ, there is a slight difference, it's slightly more responsive

Whereas, using it on the TBRD, it's a massive difference
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 08-19-2019, 02:39 AM
aaron_t aaron_t is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 20
Default

Why is it so hard to believe that wood might not sound the same after sitting for an extended period (hours/days/years)? The cellular structure of wood is complex with many different components of varying stiffness/brittleness/viscosity. And let’s not forget _water_, of which a properly humidified instrument has some (not much, but some); and _gravity_, which is pulling all that stuff in one direction while sitting unplayed. Not to mention the _friction_ of all of those things torquing and rubbing against each other while vibrating, causing _heat_ which can lead to further subtle changes to the properties of the various components.

To me it’s no surprise that guitars “wake up”, and that this can vary from one guitar to the next. Very little in this world is completely static and guitars are no exception.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 08-19-2019, 07:17 AM
coopman coopman is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 400
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim McKnight View Post
You are not imagining things Doc. Every Red Spruce Guitar that we’ve built exhibits this same trait. It’s something unique to Red Spruce in that after 20-30 minutes the top does wake up in that it gets louder and more responsive. It happens each and every time and I’ve never known it to totally go away. The entire guitar will generally open up and mature as it ages. The bass and mids will get fuller and louder over time but the trebles will mostly remain very similar to what they were when new.
Just because someone has never experienced something, and/or doesn't believe it, doesn't mean that it's not true. I am in complete agreement with Tim here. Having owned a dozen guitars over the years, I had three guitars that distinctly exhibited this phenomenon ... and they were all Adi. I would also say they were probably my best sounding instruments in terms of character of sound and overall loudness ... after 15 to 20 min of playing, almost every time. Some days I didn't have enough time or energy ... haha. Now conversely, I had two other Adi's that did not exhibit characteristic. So it's probably safe to say not all Adi guitars will be like this. There are numerous other factors, of course - design, build, woods, etc.

I generally thought it was a bonus, that whenever I'd start a playing session that the guitar would start sounding better as time progressed. It is a distinct and noticable phenomenon.

One final thought, I also agree there are times when it is "just us" ie perception, as expressed by DCoombs. There always seems to be days when your guitar sounds just plain lousy ... But 9 times out of 10, it's due to sudden high humidity, dead strings, or simply having a bad day. Hopefully those are few and far between, and generally something easily remedied.

To the OP, it is probably not your imagination! Can you live with it and do you "love" the instrument otherwise? An hour with a tonerite does seem a bit extreme, perhaps strumming an E chord vigorously for a minute or two could do the trick over time.

John
__________________
Caretaker.
Acoustic Guitar Forum CD - Vol. 1

Last edited by coopman; 08-19-2019 at 07:24 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 08-19-2019, 07:44 AM
Vognell Vognell is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Orlando,FL
Posts: 480
Default

Both of my classicals (cedar top, spruce to) gets kind of dull if I leave them alone for too long. A couple of hours of playing loosens up the tone (more volume, more sustain, more overtones). The Cedar top seems to be the worst of the two.

All of my violins hate being left unplayed, and will sound stiff and nasally until played in.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 08-19-2019, 08:57 AM
opencee opencee is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Left
Posts: 553
Default

From Wikipedia: “The Martha Mitchell effect is the process by which a psychiatrist, psychologist, other mental health clinician, or a medical professional, labels the patient's accurate perception of real events as delusional and misdiagnoses accordingly.”

Martha Mitchell was the wife of Attorney General, John Mitchell, during the Watergate era. Her claims about conspiracies and illegal activity in the Nixon administration were thought to be delusional. Everybody said she was crazy, but she was vindicated by history.

The lesson is, although a person’s story may seem implausible, it doesn’t mean that it is not true.

I have experienced guitars opening up. I have also experienced the sleep and waking up effects being discussed here, especially with my Adirondack-topped 00. Some people have mentioned “warming up”. I believe that, in some cases, warming up might be literal cause of waking up. I have no proof, just anecdotal evidence.

My wife and I keep a pretty cool house. That is a reference to temperature, not style. I’m a pretty big guy. It seems that when I get my big 98.6 degree body around that little 00 guitar for a while, it literally warms up and sounds better. I’ve had the same experience playing outside, starting out in the shade, then ending up in the sun. As the sun warms the guitar, it seems to get louder and more responsive.

I don’t think this is a “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” (Latin: "after this, therefore because of this") argument. I’d like to hear some expert opinion about the effects of vibration versus temperature waking a guitar up to its potential.

.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 08-19-2019, 01:40 PM
Shades of Blue Shades of Blue is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,686
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Ears waking up to the tone of a guitar and playing adaptations account for more than anything else.
Bingo. Our human ears are fickle things.

Think about it. After a long day at work and listening to the hustle and bustle of life, your guitar will sound better if you take a half hour or more to decompress and enjoy a few minutes inside a quiet house.

My guitars always sound better after dark when the house and life is at its quietest.

I also do like the "warming up" argument. I could definitely see a piece of wood vibrating more after it has warmed up through body heat or from being outdoors. Makes sense.
__________________
Taylor 717 Grand Pacific
Taylor 517 Grand Pacific
Taylor GS Mini Mahogany
Martin Dread Jr
Seagull S6 Spruce
Fender '61 Thin Skin Strat
Gibson Les Paul Traditional
PRS SC245

They say that tone is in the fingers....I say it is in your head.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 08-19-2019, 06:18 PM
Jaden Jaden is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 1,416
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vognell View Post
Both of my classicals (cedar top, spruce to) gets kind of dull if I leave them alone for too long. A couple of hours of playing loosens up the tone (more volume, more sustain, more overtones). The Cedar top seems to be the worst of the two.

All of my violins hate being left unplayed, and will sound stiff and nasally until played in.
I’ll give the nod to the folks with violins, and that whole family of string instruments and their players.

I’m not surprised some in the guitar world may not subscribe to ‘warming up’ in the short term and ‘opening up’ in the long term. I spent time reading accounts of new Taylor 717(s) opening up after a few days of play - reads very real to me.

On the other hand, I experience on a daily basis the mind-numbing insensitivity that human beings are capable of. I have little doubt that the complex mechanisms of hearing are subject to insensitivity.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 08-19-2019, 06:28 PM
jrb715 jrb715 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Southern California
Posts: 436
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shades of Blue View Post
I could definitely see a piece of wood vibrating more after it has warmed up through body heat or from being outdoors. Makes sense.
Since vibrations generate heat, it seems to me as likely--well, more likely really--to "warm up" the guitar as holding it.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > General Acoustic Guitar Discussion

Thread Tools



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=