resonator questions: string height, wood bodies, fingerpicking

[Starter]

Hi all,

I have a wonderful Mule tricone resonator (it's the single coolest thing I own, and sounds amazing). The action is pretty high: I make it about 8mm at the 12th fret. So it's really good for slide, in open positions, with the occasional fretting of notes. But in standard tuning I can barely play it.

So I'm wondering (a) whether that string height is typical for resonator and (b) whether it wouldn't be useful and fun to add a wood body resonator with a lower action (and light strings); I would love (I think) to be able get the resonator sound along with the comfort of playing a more traditional flattop.

So does anyone have suggestions? As for (b) I'm leaning towards the National wood triolian, as played by Cari Ray

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqiouyFNpvU

But I wasn't really planning to get yet another guitar (!). And I don't really get the tonal differences among the various non-tricone wood-body Nationals. What would you use for country and delta blues?

thanks
will

[JKA]

Originally Posted by Starter

Hi all,

I have a wonderful Mule tricone resonator (it's the single coolest thing I own, and sounds amazing). The action is pretty high: I make it about 8mm at the 12th fret. So it's really good for slide, in open positions, with the occasional fretting of notes. But in standard tuning I can barely play it.

So I'm wondering (a) whether that string height is typical for resonator and (b) whether it wouldn't be useful and fun to add a wood body resonator with a lower action (and light strings); I would love (I think) to be able get the resonator sound along with the comfort of playing a more traditional flattop.

So does anyone have suggestions? As for (b) I'm leaning towards the National wood triolian, as played by Cari Ray

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqiouyFNpvU

But I wasn't really planning to get yet another guitar (!). And I don't really get the tonal differences among the various non-tricone wood-body Nationals. What would you use for country and delta blues?

thanks
will

Will

I've got a couple of Nationals. One is a style O set up for slide. High action, painful to play chords on it but it sounds amazing in open tuning (D) playing easy shapes.

The other is an Estralita, wooden body. I have that set up as a fingerstyle guitar. The action is as low as a low thing can be low. No buzzes at all and an absolute joy to play finger style on. I've got some pretty nice high end acoustics which I love but there's something ethereal about the Estralita. Funnily enough, I'm gigging on Sunday with the band and I always use my Guild D55 but this time I'm going to take the Estralita for a spin. I play in an Americana (ish) style acoustic band and on Sunday we're busking at a local Arts Festival. It's going to give me the volume I need as we're sans PA, be a joy to play and look pretty cool in the mix to boot. I'm using D'Addario 012 PB's

Go for it I say...

[The Bard Rocks]

I have an old National Duolian which has all the mojo that one guitar could have. it is set up for slide and would be H - E-double hockey sticks to play conventionally. And I have an all-wood Franks which I play conventionally and love every second of it. They each have their own sounds.

[archerscreek]

Frankly, I think the idea of high action for slide is largely a thing of the past and when done now is for guitars (electrics, acoustics, resonators, dobros) where the player almost exclusivey plays with the slide. Most resonator players that I'm aware of, and certainly the ones that are affiliated with National today, interchangeably mix notes played with a slide with those played by fretting the strings.

I started out playing slide using a heavy brass slide on a Les Paul I set up with high action. It was a bit odd then playing a National with low action at first. But I changed slides, improved my technique and now I love it because it invites me to fret notes and chords which mixes things up and makes the songs I play more interesting.

If I was looking for a wood body National, I'd check out an El Trovador or the Wood version of the Reso Rocket. I believe both have a longer scale length than other single cones for slightly greater string tension. I tried a wood TriCone and wasn't awed by it, but then I like the steel or brass reso's better anyway.

[The Bard Rocks]

My dislike of playing conventionally on my old Duolian is more because of the very thick neck than high action. It is highish, but playable. I play non-barred chords in the first position just fine, single notes anywhere.

[Teleplucker]

I've owned several Nationals, I rarely play slide. All of mine were setup for regular playing, and they all played well up the neck. . I finally settled on the Wooden Resorocket.
I'm sure the Mule is a fine instrument as well and it can be setup for lower action. Find a tech that has experience working with resonator guitars or send it back to the factory for a setup.

[Earl49]

Resonator guitars should be set up for normal play. Good slide technique lets you also play that style too - or mix & match within a song. They don't have to have ultra high setups for slide playing. I have played Mike Dowling's personal National El Trovador at classes during a guitar camp, and can confirm that it was set up about as well as any guitar I have ever played.

Originally Posted by Starter

So I'm wondering (a) whether that string height is typical for resonator and (b) whether it wouldn't be useful and fun to add a wood body resonator with a lower action (and light strings); I would love (I think) to be able get the resonator sound along with the comfort of playing a more traditional flattop.

So does anyone have suggestions? As for (b) I'm leaning towards the National wood triolian, as played by Cari Ray

You can always have the action on the Mule lowered a bit.

I have a National M2, a wood-bodied biscuit, and I recently played an El Trovador. Both sound considerably less "metallic" than a steel or brass reso -- more like a regular guitar, but with reverb -- but there's no mistaking that they're resonators.

Set up for slide, a lot of resonators have fairly shallow nut slots; sometimes filing these deeper makes all the difference in fretting comfort. Also, using a capo effectively lowers the strings at the nut without permanently compromising the guitar's "slide" action.

I use light gauge strings. Some say that lights don't "drive the cone" as well as mediums, but I haven't found that to be the case. You might try that on the Mule, to see if it makes it more comfortable.

Nationals typically have a neck carve that starts out at the nut in a fairly pronounced V, which then gets more C-shaped at you go towards the body. The nut width is a wide 1.82". While comfortable, you will find that it's pretty different from your Mule. The Mule I played had a 1 3/4" nut and a wonderfully full neck shape without even a hint of V in it. The National is easy enough to adapt to, but you'll notice the extra girth.

Should you go the wood-body route, you will immediate notice and appreciate the dramatic weight savings! The tonal differences between the National woodies is subtle -- the tops and backs are all laminated, after all. The El Trovador I played had a deeper body and the bass was dramatically louder; its body shape is a little different than the others, as well. The maple neck of the Estralita gives it a little more snap. The mahogany neck of the M2 makes it a little mellower. Any of them would be fine for country or Delta blues; they just lack a bit of the nasal "honk" of the metal bodies.

[Starter]

I just bit the bullet (well, on a trial basis) and have gone down the 1 metal 1 wood resonator route, especially after reading the post by JKA. Ordered not an Estralita but an M-14 "Thunderbox" (a little put off by the name, since in one my favorite novels that word means "portable latrine"), partly because Elderly had a used one and partly because the 14 frets will be really helpful when playing with my wife and using the capo to match her voice.

My local luthier tried to lower the action on the Mule and found that there was something about the angle that kept him from doing it. He seems like he know EVERYTHING, so I hadn't thought about sending it back to Matt at Mule, and don't know if they could in fact lower the action there. But I'm anyway happy with the idea of a lighter, less dramatic reso sound to add to the mix, and the extra two frets should be really helpful.

So thank you all!

will

will

[neomastino]

Originally Posted by Starter

Hi all,

I have a wonderful Mule tricone resonator (it's the single coolest thing I own, and sounds amazing). The action is pretty high: I make it about 8mm at the 12th fret. So it's really good for slide, in open positions, with the occasional fretting of notes. But in standard tuning I can barely play it.

So I'm wondering (a) whether that string height is typical for resonator and (b) whether it wouldn't be useful and fun to add a wood body resonator with a lower action (and light strings); I would love (I think) to be able get the resonator sound along with the comfort of playing a more traditional flattop.

So does anyone have suggestions? As for (b) I'm leaning towards the National wood triolian, as played by Cari Ray

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqiouyFNpvU

But I wasn't really planning to get yet another guitar (!). And I don't really get the tonal differences among the various non-tricone wood-body Nationals. What would you use for country and delta blues?

thanks
will

I hear you, I too have a mule and it takes legit effort to play without a slide. I took it Charley's Guitar Shop here in Dallas and their tech (who by reputation is topnotch) stated that it would be very difficult without "major changes" to lower the action. I didn't want to do that so i just play in small intervals and enjoy the time i get to play it.

best of luck to you.

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by neomastino

I hear you, I too have a mule and it takes legit effort to play without a slide. I took it Charley's Guitar Shop here in Dallas and their tech (who by reputation is topnotch) stated that it would be very difficult without "major changes" to lower the action. I didn't want to do that so i just play in small intervals and enjoy the time i get to play it.

best of luck to you.

Adjustments to a reso are more complicated than on a standard wood-bodied steel string, and more things can go wrong (I've watched my guy pulling his hair out trying to find a rattle in a Metal National. And he doesn't have much hair to begin with...). So working on them is a bit specialized, and competent steel-string techs might not know resos that well. While not doubting the guy at Charleys, you might want to look at The Guitar Sanctuary, who look to be dealers in both Nationals and Beards. (I couldn't tell what Charleys sells, as their instrument links take me to Reverb, with no much listed). Alternatively, have you thought about taking with the people at Mule?

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by Starter

Hi all,

I have a wonderful Mule tricone resonator (it's the single coolest thing I own, and sounds amazing). The action is pretty high: I make it about 8mm at the 12th fret. So it's really good for slide, in open positions, with the occasional fretting of notes. But in standard tuning I can barely play it.

So I'm wondering (a) whether that string height is typical for resonator and (b) whether it wouldn't be useful and fun to add a wood body resonator with a lower action (and light strings); I would love (I think) to be able get the resonator sound along with the comfort of playing a more traditional flattop.

So does anyone have suggestions? As for (b) I'm leaning towards the National wood triolian, as played by Cari Ray

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqiouyFNpvU

But I wasn't really planning to get yet another guitar (!). And I don't really get the tonal differences among the various non-tricone wood-body Nationals. What would you use for country and delta blues?

thanks
will

Also consider if you want a biscuit or a spider cone. Biscuits seem a bit more fundamental, a bit brasher, more direct, a bark, almost banjoish, while spiders are a bit more mid-rangy, a bit sweeter, more sustain, but some tend towards a bit of nasalness.

I have a Maple wood bodied Rayco round neck, with a spider. Mine is NOT nasally, but rather has a strong low end, and the mids round and full, and clear clean highs. Great note to note definition. I've had a couple of people say it sounds too good for blues, but others disagree. (including the aforementioned Mike Dowling, who played it at Wintergrass one year and quite liked it. And he had no idea that the owner was sitting there watching he and Orville Johnson jamming. But you really need to try a few different ones to decide what YOU like.

Setup... The Rayco is just "slightly" high, just a little higher than a couple of guitars that I mainly fingerpick without slide and have very low action. Very easy to play normally, as well as to slide on. It helps to play a little with string gauges, like upping the gauge of the first string, to give better support and clearer tone to the slide. If keeping it in Open D, say, I might also raise the gauge of the strings tuned down; 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 6th.

As I have become more accurate with the slide, my action has come down, on both the reso and on the steel-string that I have setup for hybrid slide.

You should contact Mule about the action on your reso, and ask them about changing it. And try a number of different woods and cones, to find what your ear likes.

TW

[Starter]

hello all,

Just a note to thank all concerned. Acting on Mycroft's suggestion I contacted Matt Eich at Mule, sent them the guitar for adjustment (neck reset? something else?) and it came back totally playable in standard tuning etc. Matt refused to let me pay him even for shipping it back.

So I'm a happy camper, no longer eyeing wood bodies resonators, and just waiting around for the guitar to make me cool.

Thanks to all,
Will