#1
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Talk to me about a guitar that has cut for song circles
Hi all,
Spent the morning at Folkway Music in Waterloo ON playing dreads. I've been thinking I wanted something a bit louder then the SD40R I have. Played a host of Martins (D28, D35), a Bourgeois Bango Killer and a D, an Iris DF Smeck, and an Old Guild (D40 I think). In raw volume measured with my SPL meter (hand held, not a phone app) none were louder than the Larrivee, about 87 dB. I then got to chatting with Mark Stutman and he said if he's playing with a group he usually brings a 00 sized guitar to 'cut' through. He talked about loudness in the right frequency which I've heard mentioned here. I thanked him for his time and said I needed to process this new info. He and his employee got a kick out of me bringing the meter. So I'm rethinking what might be the next guitar or what I might build. Would appreciate any thoughts on the subject because this is a direction (smaller guitar) that I've never considered. Thanks, Jeff |
#2
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Jeff, a guitar that has cut for song-circles? Did anyone over 60 ever think of this? Relax, a new Reimagined Martin D-18/D-28/HD-28 or the Larrivee SD-40R can and will be excellent for this socially, fun activity--play softer or louder as the song or situation calls for it.
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Martin HD-28 Sunburst/Trance M-VT Phantom Martin D-18/UltraTonic Adamas I 2087GT-8 Ovation Custom Legend LX Guild F-212XL STD Huss & Dalton TD-R Taylor 717e Taylor 618e Taylor 614ce Larrivee D-50M/HiFi Larrivee D-40R Blue Grass Special/HiFi Larrivee D-40R Sunburst Larrivee C-03R TE/Trance M-VT Phantom RainSong BI-DR1000N2 Emerald X20 Yamaha FGX5 Republic Duolian/Schatten NR-2 Last edited by SpruceTop; 10-02-2022 at 10:29 AM. |
#3
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You need cutting power, not necessarily the same as volume.
In my song circle, the most cutting guitar, among many, is my friend’s parlor. To me, it’s a very strident sound, but it certainly cuts through the group of other guitars being played. So, the cutting power may be there, but do you want a nice rich sound or a cutting sound? Thats why banjos and mandolins cut through so well…a brittle, sharp tone. Rb Last edited by Rogerblair; 10-01-2022 at 06:59 PM. |
#4
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By reputation, that Banjo Killer should have an awful lot of cut. A buddy of mine has one that he swears kills in bluegrass jams. He lives in another city and I have not seen/heard it in person yet.
I've always wanted to play one of the Tim O'Brien signature 00-18's. I would imagine a 00 sized mahogany guitar with a full length scale would cut pretty well.
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Collings 1997 0002H Martin 2012 00-DB Gibson 2020 LG-2, 2021 J-185, 2018 Parlor M Rosewood Alvarez Yairi 1988 DY-52, 1982 DY-45, 1972 5068 12-string Nation NRP, Polychrome Couple of stray mandolins... |
#5
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One friend of mine who I pick with has a couple of 50’s vintage small-bodied Martins, a 0-18 and a 00-18. Man, do they cut through, especially the 0-18, which is the one he uses the most.
So my suggestion is that you look for a used small Martin. whm |
#6
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Thanks, Wade. I'd listen to Mark Stutman on whatever guitars he has in stock. Usually the smaller mahogany guitars are considered to "cut" and he might have particular suggestions. I have a mahogany OM that cuts to the bone. In any acoustic jam situation, it is my guitar of choice. It is also a great guitar for any playing, but especially for flatpicking.
A guitar with a beautiful deep tone might actually get lost in the mix. Cut isn't volume, it's EQ. |
#7
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There are 3 things at work here: cut, the volume of what you hear as a player, and the projection. The meter measures projection and could also measure what you hear if you change it's position.
Do you want to hear yourself? Or do you want others to hear you? (Both can be possible.)
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The Bard Rocks Fay OM Sinker Redwood/Tiger Myrtle Sexauer L00 Adk/Magnolia For Sale Hatcher Jumbo Bearclaw/"Bacon" Padauk Goodall Jumbo POC/flamed Mahogany Appollonio 12 POC/Myrtle MJ Franks Resonator, all Australian Blackwood Goodman J45 Lutz/fiddleback Mahogany Blackbird "Lucky 13" - carbon fiber '31 National Duolian + many other stringed instruments. |
#8
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I’ve been to a few outdoor jams last month and my HD28V is loud and cuts pretty well. My HD35CS is very loud by itself but it doesn’t cut. My 2012 D18 does a pretty good job. But for me the main consideration is how well a guitar hooks with my voice and for that I find the HD28V works best. So yeah, a small body guitar should cut through better but I’d really want to try singing with it first and see how that works out.
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#9
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So, are "song circles" where someone suggests a well known song and you have 15 acoustic guitars strumming wildly along simultaneously? Or is a song circle where people share their original songs with the group, where only one maybe a handful of other folks are playing, depending on complexity?
Personally I would think that any good dreadnaught is what you need, as that's what they were designed for, to "cut" through back in the 1930s. But if there are 15 guitars strumming, then, well, it's already chaos, especially in the low frequencies. Bring a good vintage koa or mahogany ukulele. |
#10
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I've been to a few of these, not recently, none with any banjos however. I find banjos, especially in numbers, a little scary, like clowns. My Dad played banjo and I was once in a room with 24 of them going at the same time, when I was a small child. I still have nightmares about that.
Whatever the circle was, I wouldn't take my D35, it don't think it would cut that well, even though it can be a loud guitar.. I'd take the D18. It's a brighter guitar overall, with a stronger sound in the mids and highs, the sort of treble you need to get through. Turtle Last edited by turtlejimmy; 10-01-2022 at 07:16 PM. Reason: The usual suspect .... grammar. |
#11
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A lot of it (volume, power, projection) depends on technique, picks and strings.
If you play with the guitar NOT in contact with your body (aided for me with Tony Pire's Tone-gard, widely used by many mandolin players AND he makes one that fits my HD-28) that helps. If you pick like you mean it, with a substantial pick (Gravity acrylic picks 1.5 to 2.0 mm are the brightest/loudest picks I've tried, and I've tried almost all of them) you will be heard. If you're ok with the sound and feel of Ernie Ball aluminum bronze strings, medium gage (as I am) that will help a lot. But ultimately if you want to be heard over everything else, I have two guitars that will do the job: - Gold Tone Paul Beard round neck resonator strung with 13's. - my Altamira gypsy jazz guitar. Incrediby light (unlike the reso) but incredibly loud. Please only crank it up for your solo breaks and leads. Good jam etiquette means everyone lays back for the vocalist or solo breaks. If everyone did this there would be no need for this topic..... |
#12
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Unless you're trying to play lead over several other guitars playing rhythm, you probably don't need the guitar to "cut". Most frequently, people are playing their guitars TOO LOUD for their vocals to be heard, in my experience.
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#13
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- to which I'll add a New York-era Epiphone archtop; while prices are going up (like everything else), as a rule they're still priced substantially below their Gibson counterparts, and as long as you're not looking for a pre-1936 Olympic (the "David Rawlings model") player-grade 16-inchers can still be found in the $1500+/- bracket if you look...
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"Mistaking silence for weakness and contempt for fear is the final, fatal error of a fool" - Sicilian proverb (paraphrased) |
#14
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I've also been sitting very close to somebody who had a really loud guitar (and he strummed really hard), and he chose to play along with everybody (except those of us with original songs). I couldn't hear the vocals or anybody else playing.
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#15
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Steve |