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  #1  
Old 09-17-2022, 04:48 AM
viento viento is offline
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Question Is a roasted spruce top recommended?

I need a spruce top for my jumbo guitar
I find roasted spruce interesting.
Is this to recommend?
Does anyone have experience with it?
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  #2  
Old 09-17-2022, 04:55 AM
Silly Moustache Silly Moustache is offline
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Ola! "roasted" ? probably better than fried.

You probably refer to a thermally aged tonewood, also called "torrified"

This has become "fashionable" since the acoustic guitar builders realised that most high value instruments were bought by older players who cannot wait a few decades for their new guitars to "open up".

It is your personal choice.

Hi! „geröstet“? wahrscheinlich besser als frittiert.

Sie beziehen sich wahrscheinlich auf ein thermisch gealtertes Tonholz, auch "torrified" genannt.

Dies ist "in Mode" geworden, seit die Akustikgitarrenbauer erkannt haben, dass die meisten hochwertigen Instrumente von älteren Spielern gekauft wurden, die nicht ein paar Jahrzehnte warten können, bis sich ihre neuen Gitarren "öffnen".

Es ist Ihre persönliche Wahl.


¡Ola! "asado" ? probablemente mejor que frito.

Probablemente se refiera a una madera tonal envejecida térmicamente, también llamada "torrificada".

Esto se ha puesto "de moda" desde que los constructores de guitarras acústicas se dieron cuenta de que la mayoría de los instrumentos de alto valor los compraban músicos mayores que no pueden esperar unas décadas para que sus nuevas guitarras "se abran".

Es su elección personal.
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Old 09-17-2022, 07:07 AM
viento viento is offline
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Thank you for your kind reply!
You're right, I'm almost 81 and can't wait for my guitars to be "opened up" for decades to come...
so I'm not after any "fashion" tops, just love them like they have been played for a long time .
Any cons?
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Martin D28 (1973)
12-string cutaway ...finished ;-)
Hoyer 12-string (1965)
Yamaha FG-340 (1970)
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Old 09-17-2022, 09:32 AM
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I've built 5 with torrified tops and am currently building two OMs with T-Tops.

That might not be enough experience to make any definitive statements but from that experience I notice some differences one of which I think is important.

First of all the stuff is brittle and doesn't glue as well as regular. The first couple I built I used T-brace wood but have decided against doing that going forward. I have not any problems with it but like I said it's brittle so I chose to use regular Sitka now.

I read into it when I got started on T-Wood and many well known luthiers suggested using Fish Glue for the bracing so I have adopted that. T-Wood is very hydrophobic and the glues we use for guitars are all water based. My 'theory' on Fish is that it's very slow cure time allows for the water base glue to make better bonds with the limited cellulose there is in T-wood. You absolutely must clamp for 24 hours.

The important part - When you build a guitar with regular spruce from the moment you put strings on it the guitar starts to break in very quickly. It's something that amazes me still till this day. Within one week the guitar has a totally new tone and typically for the better. This is why I like the Tonerite but I digress.

With t-topped guitars they sound almost the same a week later from the the first time you put strings on. So it is what it is from the get go.
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Old 09-17-2022, 11:49 AM
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I have one guitar with a torrified top and it does seem to have a bit more of that older sound, but I don't have the same guitar with a "normal" top to compare to, so can't say. It is Adirondack spruce, which does, at least rumor suggests, does need more break in time. Not sure what species of top wood you're looking at, but if you can try a guitar by that builder without a torrified top, it might be worth it to clarify whether it actually *needs* pre-aging. (My previous "new" guitar had a plain Sitka top and I never felt that it lacked anything.)

I have heard that, besides glue, finishes can be problematic with this kind of wood. If the builder has only a little experience with it, I might be a little hesitant. But, maybe those issues and the compensations are well understood these days.
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Old 09-17-2022, 12:53 PM
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Thank you for sharing your experiences!
As I never before have used a "torrified" spruce top on any of my guitars
I better don´t make new experiences but continue with "normal" spruce.
Its "opening time" seems to be considerably short...
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Martin D28 (1973)
12-string cutaway ...finished ;-)
Hoyer 12-string (1965)
Yamaha FG-340 (1970)
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Old 09-18-2022, 07:23 PM
xzy xzy is offline
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Not to disparage torrefaction,

My opinion is that it will prove to be a fad in instrument building. I think it's not a good way to build instruments, but if someone wants T wood it's fine with me it's their instrument.

A guitar top opening up over time is real, but also from my experience my spruce top will close up if I don't play for several days, or so it seems.

This is just my opinion, not trying to diminish anyone who is building with T wood.
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Old 09-19-2022, 08:45 AM
redir redir is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xzy View Post
Not to disparage torrefaction,

My opinion is that it will prove to be a fad in instrument building. I think it's not a good way to build instruments, but if someone wants T wood it's fine with me it's their instrument.

A guitar top opening up over time is real, but also from my experience my spruce top will close up if I don't play for several days, or so it seems.

This is just my opinion, not trying to diminish anyone who is building with T wood.
I'd swear that they, well some of them, even open up after about 30 minutes of playing.
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Old 09-19-2022, 09:14 AM
godfreydaniel godfreydaniel is offline
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I have a Collings 001 14 fret with a torrefied Sitka top. From the start it had a strong bass, particularly for a 14-fret 00. Initially the treble strings were a bit brighter than I’d have liked, but I’ve noticed that on other new Collings guitars, and that they warm up over time. I’ve read several times that a torrified top’s sound won’t change - that wasn’t my experience. Overall it’s a great sounding guitar.

I’ve also played two Collings OM2H Traditional guitars, both with torrefied Sitka tops. Both were truly exceptional guitars. If I wasn’t a dedicated short-scale player I’d have bought one.

More info:


http://onemanz.com/guitar/articles-2/torrefication/

https://bourgeoisguitars.com/fj-podc...-torrefaction/
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Old 09-19-2022, 11:07 AM
Alan Carruth Alan Carruth is offline
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It certainly is harder to work with for the maker.

I think of all of those 'artificial aging' schemes as like 'stone washed' jeans: they're comfortable off the rack, but they don't hold up very long.

A properly made guitar should sound good right off the bench. The fact that it can get better with age is a bonus. What tends to change with 'playing in' is more sound in the lowest register. If the guitar starts off 'bassy' it can end up 'tubby' over time; they don't all get 'better'. Maybe there's less chance of that with a Torrefied top.
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Old 09-19-2022, 02:36 PM
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I just bent a section of torrified sitka and added it to the body of a guitar I am building. It seemed much stiffer than a normal piece of spruce that was the same thickness. It did surprise me.
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Old 09-19-2022, 09:23 PM
redir redir is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
I just bent a section of torrified sitka and added it to the body of a guitar I am building. It seemed much stiffer than a normal piece of spruce that was the same thickness. It did surprise me.
How much bend? I am surprised that stuff would even bend at all. Yes it seems to always be stiffer. That has been the conundrum I have faced using it.
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Old 09-20-2022, 03:33 AM
viento viento is offline
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Thank you all for this very interesting discussion!
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Hoyer 12-string (1965)
Yamaha FG-340 (1970)
Yamaha FG-512 (ca. 1980)
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and 4 electric axes
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Old 09-20-2022, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redir View Post
How much bend? I am surprised that stuff would even bend at all. Yes it seems to always be stiffer. That has been the conundrum I have faced using it.
I broke a number of sides trying to bend it years ago and decided to bake the sides after they were bent. This one has a non baked sides and I used a section of the top plate to use for the cutaway. The thickness was about 0.090" and I used SuperSoft II before bending. It was very resistant to bending (softwoods are more than most hardwoods also) but I managed (I used a hot pipe). I let it sit overnight before bending and found that it did not want to bend much in the areas where I had to tweak it a little before gluing. Rather than forcing it and creating more stress in the back I just filled in the area that did not glue up perfectly. The piece was glued to the lining, it is more cosmetic in nature. I used CA glue, the reason I had one shot to do it and a slight misalignment might be the reason for the less than perfect fit.

Long winded story but yes it can be bent but not something I look forward to doing. The main thing I took away was (besides being difficult doing a body cutaway that was structural rather than veneer over a block of wood) was that the baked wood really is stiffer. Makes me want to try a complete guitar baked, other than the braces. Or maybe with the braces, I have been known to go out on a limb with no cape.

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Old 09-20-2022, 02:39 PM
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Naturally wood has a much higher moisture content than baked wood. This internal moisture plays a very relevant part in the ease bending. I have found that wood is far easier to bend the first time than it is if you decide to bend it a second time, for instance.
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