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Old 10-01-2022, 09:03 AM
kurth kurth is offline
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Default how to make AG stand out in a mix ?

Open to all suggestions. I'm usually recording my guitar with a mag soundhole with interior mic, and an outside large diaphragm , into two separate tracks. Then I run them both thru Re-guitar. It all sounds pretty good alone. But as soon as I add even a voice track, I loose presence of the guitar. And when I add instrument tracks the guitar disappears even further. Usually I have only three basic tracks....guitar, voice, and virtual instrument. I usually double the guitar track, and send them in opposite directions, or have two separate guitar tracks. What are different solutions for keeping the original presence of the acoustic instrument in a daw mix ? thanks for your suggestions/k
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Old 10-01-2022, 10:02 AM
FrankHudson FrankHudson is offline
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As I understand it, the classic primary answer is EQ and placement in the mix.

As one of the members that does a lot of "full band" mixes with acoustic guitar I'm still learning this. Your acoustic guitar track does not need to sound optimally "great" when soloed. You don't need stereo acoustic tracks if it's not the featured part. You may want to think less stereo and width in general on every track and more nice focused instruments given their own place in the left/right and "forward/back" (volume and "wetness"). And you don't need every instrument track playing in every section of the piece either (the last one is something I'm working on avoiding myself).

As to what EQ cuts or boosts to make, that's an art, though tools like Izotrope Neutron try to help guide you with suggestions by "listening" to other tracks and guiding you with comparison EQ curve displays. Of course in the olden days everyone did this by ear, and the final judgement of listeners is made by ear too.
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Old 10-01-2022, 11:36 AM
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As Frank mentioned EQ--- Specifically what is known as mid range subtractive narrow Q -EQ.. to carve out space and help differentiate the various instruments and voice

The problem is that the human voice, guitar, and most virtual instruments, occupy a lot of the same mid range frequencies and so those frequencies will get crowded and less distinct

One thing that can definitely help for better presence is judicious room treatment


Also If you are talking about BlueCats Re- Guitar I would consider not using it at all ,,,or at least only use on the pickup track and definitely do not apply it until after you are satisfied with the sound of the acoustic in the entire mix and then consider using it in parallel,, same with reverb .

Also I would think about (depending on the which virtual instrument) send it hard L & R but have the acoustic guitar tracks spread only to 45 left and 45 right.. and (if not already doing it ) have the vocal mono up the middle

OR simply eliminate the pick up track altogether and just the LDC on the guitar .. Presence is in the high frequency

You have actually hit upon key element in mixing, Making some adjustments in isolation is ok , especially for say leveling out the loud and quiet spots in a track or dealing with unwanted noises. BUT things will change when you mix in more instruments and because of this I seldom add FX in isolation because those relationships and settings will definitely change ..
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Old 10-01-2022, 11:55 AM
kurth kurth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
As Frank mentioned EQ--- Specifically what is known as mid range subtractive narrow Q -EQ.. to carve out space and help differentiate the various instruments and voice

The problem is that the human voice, guitar, and most virtual instruments, occupy a lot of the same mid range frequencies and so those frequencies will get crowded and less distinct

Also If you are talking about BlueCats Re- Guitar I would consider not using it or at least only use on the pickup and definitely do not apply it until after you are satisfied with the sound of the acoustic in the entire mix and consider using it in parallel same with reverb .

You have actually hit upon key element in mixing, Making some adjustments in isolation is ok , especially for say leveling out the loud and quiet spots in a track or dealing with unwanted noises. BUT things will change when you mix in more instruments and because of this I seldom add FX in isolation because those relationships and settings will definitely change ..
thanks....I've done alot of fiddling with parametric eq in my daw ( mixcraft) but usually I'm adding volume in certain frequency's , not subtracting them. And usually it sounds better....until I mix it down. I guess an individual track could be broken up and each could be eq'ed differently? LOts of work, but maybe that's the key, because the eq'ed parts sounds good with voice but in the parts w/o, not so much. Can you please explain subtractive narrow Q as it relates to AG ? thanks/k

ps...I'm gonna try an experiment and see if I record both tracks simultaneously....ie the guitar and the voice, then maybe the guitar would hold more presence, since a bit of both are in both tracks? I also want to try the over-the-shoulder technique but I need a boom first. I've always tried to record separate tracks on the voice and guitar, because it's obviously easier...but maybe easier doesn't do what I need.
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Old 10-01-2022, 12:24 PM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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Between the 5 years of radio shows I mixed and then the zillion open mics I’ve live streamed since, I’ve heard a lot of singer-songwriter guitars. Two nights ago I probably mixed 25 of them. Touch and attack seem to matter a lot. And definition of the subdivisions in the time. Also, you won’t hear the start of a note or chord if the previous one doesn’t end. This stuff counts bigtime for bass players, too.
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Old 10-01-2022, 12:26 PM
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For combo playing, I use a small-diaphragm condenser mic. My favorite has turned out to be the AKG C451B, which gets some flak from some around here. I keep it back from the guitar by at least ten inches and generally pointed towards the neck to body joint. You need a good sounding room for this.



In the mix I typically roll off the bass because the bass guitar will be living down there and there is no need to compete. I also typically carve out the low mids unless the guitar does that for me. If I want more "chirp on the top end I'll peak the 5k (or some surrounding frequency) by two to five db.

This week my co-producer and I were overdubbing guitars on a client's project. We did exactly the above but just reduced the mids by about two db and peaked the treble at 5k by about two db. You want to avoid a whole lot of peaking EQ because it tends to push whatever frequency range you peak into saturation far easier.

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Old 10-01-2022, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kurth View Post
thanks....I've done alot of fiddling with parametric eq in my daw ( mixcraft) but usually I'm adding volume in certain frequency's , not subtracting them. And usually it sounds better....until I mix it down. I guess an individual track could be broken up and each could be eq'ed differently? LOts of work, but maybe that's the key, because the eq'ed parts sounds good with voice but in the parts w/o, not so much. Can you please explain subtractive narrow Q as it relates to AG ? thanks/k
Ok In a nutshell yes Subtractive EQ as you guessed means cutting db's in a given frequency range as opposed to boosting them. Now sometimes I also employ boosting, but only after doing subtractive first
And Yes you would do that differently for the different instrument tracks

There are two types of subtractive EQ-ing One is a surgical cut only on a very narrow range of worst sounding frequencies ( Narrow Q)
The other is using a somewhat wider Q with a slight cut and then have these be in different ranges (as you noted) for the different instruments


Here is what I do
#1 I put a multi-band parametric EQ with adjustable Q on every audio track
#2 On every vocal and guitar track they all have a high pass filter engaged to cut off everything below 75 Hz

Often with acoustic guitar that "bad sound" will be somewhere between 450 Hz and 550 Hz so I may do surgical cut there and then maybe a slightly wider Q Cut at say 900 or 1000 Hz then I may cut the vocal at say 1500 and perhaps a VI at 2000 hz (but it all really depends on listening for what might be the best places to do this)








Quote:
ps...I'm gonna try an experiment and see if I record both tracks simultaneously....ie the guitar and the voice, then maybe the guitar would hold more presence, since a bit of both are in both tracks? I also want to try the over-the-shoulder technique but I need a boom first. I've always tried to record separate tracks on the voice and guitar, because it's obviously easier...but maybe easier doesn't do what I need.
I often record the vocal and guitar at the same time but I don't think that will do much as far as presence

Presence is much more related to clearing out the low- mid mud and distortion
Subtractive EQ helps you to do this Cutting the very low end (high pass filter) and more precise cutting of problem frequencies will go a long way towards creating more presence

Simply adding an Eq boost may only compound the mud and distortion which will suck the presence and make you mix sound flatter
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Old 10-01-2022, 04:20 PM
Gordon Currie Gordon Currie is offline
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The most common cause of losing the acoustic guitar in a mix is frequency competition/masking.

To get everybody to play nice together requires the smart use of EQ as others have mentioned.

Word to the wise - don't solo the tracks much once you start EQing for a mix. Individual tracks can sound pretty bad out of context. They only sound best in combination with the other instruments.

(When King Crimson rebooted in the 80s, Robert Fripp demanded that the drummers remove cymbals from their kits - reasoning that cymbals and electric guitars create a no-win clash.)
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Old 10-01-2022, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Ok In a nutshell yes Subtractive EQ as you guessed means cutting db's in a given frequency range as opposed to boosting them. Now sometimes I also employ boosting, but only after doing subtractive first
And Yes you would do that differently for the different instrument tracks

There are two types of subtractive EQ-ing One is a surgical cut only on a very narrow range of worst sounding frequencies ( Narrow Q)
The other is using a somewhat wider Q with a slight cut and then have these be in different ranges (as you noted) for the different instruments


Here is what I do
#1 I put a multi-band parametric EQ with adjustable Q on every audio track
#2 On every vocal and guitar track they all have a high pass filter engaged to cut off everything below 75 Hz

Often with acoustic guitar that "bad sound" will be somewhere between 450 Hz and 550 Hz so I may do surgical cut there and then maybe a slightly wider Q Cut at say 900 or 1000 Hz then I may cut the vocal at say 1500 and perhaps a VI at 2000 hz (but it all really depends on listening for what might be the best places to do this)








I often record the vocal and guitar at the same time but I don't think that will do much as far as presence

Presence is much more related to clearing out the low- mid mud and distortion
Subtractive EQ helps you to do this Cutting the very low end (high pass filter) and more precise cutting of problem frequencies will go a long way towards creating more presence

Simply adding an Eq boost may only compound the mud and distortion which will suck the presence and make you mix sound flatter
Also note that well used compression can bring an element forward in a mix which results in more presence .
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Old 10-01-2022, 06:00 PM
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I suggest you post a recording you've made to Soundcloud or some such site and share it here. Then you will get specific recommendation that might be more helpful.
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Old 10-01-2022, 06:46 PM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kurth View Post
Open to all suggestions. I'm usually recording my guitar with a mag soundhole with interior mic, and an outside large diaphragm , into two separate tracks. Then I run them both thru Re-guitar. It all sounds pretty good alone. But as soon as I add even a voice track, I loose presence of the guitar. And when I add instrument tracks the guitar disappears even further. Usually I have only three basic tracks....guitar, voice, and virtual instrument. I usually double the guitar track, and send them in opposite directions, or have two separate guitar tracks. What are different solutions for keeping the original presence of the acoustic instrument in a daw mix ? thanks for your suggestions/k
There's a distinct difference between wanting your acoustic guitar to "stand out in the mix" vs not getting "buried in the mix". I'm thinking that not getting buried is what you're really having problems with?

If you're doing most of your stuff as overdubs it's quite natural for each addition to overwhelm what was previously your "feature" track, that's just part of what we sometimes go for in each new track.

I'm certainly not an expert at doing this, but I enjoy it and do strive to improve what my mixes sound like each time I render a finished project.

My best mixes come from thinking about what I'd like to hear as the resulting sound if the same instruments were played live on stage in front of me. This is a somewhat odd methodology, but it works for me. It requires a good amount of thought about where the "musicians" are located, their front to back positions, the instrument timber, volume, and clarity, as well as the ideal vocal, as it would be delivered from a proper P.A.

If you're using virtual instruments it might prove more difficult because many of these are designed to be "featured" instruments. It is more difficult to assign them a lesser position in your sound field.

Try this method on a simpler mix of perhaps only a guitar and vocal to get an idea as to it's applicability in your situation.

Also, if you find a guitar tone that you're satisfied with, try to NOT use any additive EQ for that track once you start overdubbing. It's much better to figure out what to SUBTRACT from your newly added track to keep your ear happy with the previous guitar tone. Use this same "subtractive only" idea as each new track is added.

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Old 10-01-2022, 08:01 PM
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It's really hard to make any reasonable suggestion without hearing the track to be able to hear what the problem is.

I will say that I had alarms go off when you said you recorded both a pickup (mag + internal mic) & an external mic. There is a huge potential for phase offset and that will definitely make a source disappear as a mix gets busier.

To add to it, you probably have a polarity issue between the 2 mics as well.

[1] the magnetic pickup is going to be "faster" than both mics, meaning that it's sound will arrive ahead of the mics (or the mics will be late - however you want to think about it), causing a phase anomaly. It's also likely that the 2 mics are not equidistant from the sound source, creating a 2nd phase anomaly. So, you have a phase issue with the 2 mics vs the magnetic pickup & a 2nd potential phase issue between the 2 mics.

[2] The internal mic & the external mic are 180º out of polarity (not phase). This is because they are on opposite sides of a vibrating plate (the guitar top). So when the top of the guitar moves away from the external mic, it is moving towards the internal mic. This is much like what happens when people mic a snare drum with both top & bottom mics. They have to reverse the polarity of the "snare under" mic.

My advice would be to separate that internal mic to be able to manage these issues separately. If you can't separate it to a 3rd track, turn it or the magnetic pickup off, so you are not combining 2 sources on 1 track. If neither of those are possible, just forget the pickup & rely on the external LDC, which is likely to sound better anyway.

FYI Phase vs Polarity can be thought of (simplistically) as: Phase is a time arrival difference of the same source to 2 mics. Polarity is an electrical difference/inversion of the same source in 2 mics (i.e. plus in one mic is minus in another). There's a bit more to it, but that should help understand the basic difference of those terms (phase often gets used where polarity is correct, like on preamps that have a polarity invert switch (not a phase invert switch)).
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Old 10-01-2022, 10:36 PM
kurth kurth is offline
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It's really hard to make any reasonable suggestion without hearing the track to be able to hear what the problem is.

I will say that I had alarms go off when you said you recorded both a pickup (mag + internal mic) & an external mic. There is a huge potential for phase offset and that will definitely make a source disappear as a mix gets busier.

To add to it, you probably have a polarity issue between the 2 mics as well.

[1] the magnetic pickup is going to be "faster" than both mics, meaning that it's sound will arrive ahead of the mics (or the mics will be late - however you want to think about it), causing a phase anomaly. It's also likely that the 2 mics are not equidistant from the sound source, creating a 2nd phase anomaly. So, you have a phase issue with the 2 mics vs the magnetic pickup & a 2nd potential phase issue between the 2 mics.

[2] The internal mic & the external mic are 180º out of polarity (not phase). This is because they are on opposite sides of a vibrating plate (the guitar top). So when the top of the guitar moves away from the external mic, it is moving towards the internal mic. This is much like what happens when people mic a snare drum with both top & bottom mics. They have to reverse the polarity of the "snare under" mic.

My advice would be to separate that internal mic to be able to manage these issues separately. If you can't separate it to a 3rd track, turn it or the magnetic pickup off, so you are not combining 2 sources on 1 track. If neither of those are possible, just forget the pickup & rely on the external LDC, which is likely to sound better anyway.

FYI Phase vs Polarity can be thought of (simplistically) as: Phase is a time arrival difference of the same source to 2 mics. Polarity is an electrical difference/inversion of the same source in 2 mics (i.e. plus in one mic is minus in another). There's a bit more to it, but that should help understand the basic difference of those terms (phase often gets used where polarity is correct, like on preamps that have a polarity invert switch (not a phase invert switch)).
So many good suggestions to experiment on. thanks. Taking out the mag/mic track and using the acoustic mic track is an easy experiment to see if that helps. Just last week I ordered a heimu off of amazon.mx but they damaged the shipment, so that's another month's wait.

And as well some of Kev's suggestions will be a good path of experimentation with eq'ing.

What I've found for me is less is more. For example 'voice'. Imho it's best to sing it a 100 times, rather than use pitch correction, or comp'ing. I really don't even like reverbs. Just the natural force of song. Same with the acoustic guitar. I think that's a pretty universal ideal with the acoustic guitar...to let it's natural beauty shine. But that's not so easily done when everything is digitized ones and zeros, and the guitar has digitized sonic competition. Seems even more difficult with digital than with analog. I did some recording in the 80's with a 4 track tascam, still in my possession, and tape seemed to lose less. But another of my ideas is....like in every medium....if the material is strong enough, the medium takes a backseat. I'm not after fire and rain perfection, but I'd like a semblance, limited only by the fundamental technology, and of course my lack of talent. But also I don't want to get buried in the technology.

I've got a soundcloud account, I hope it's still there, but at the moment it's empty. I recorded an album's worth of personal material about 3 years ago on some cheap gear I had from the ole days but my copyright was refused because I tried to piggyback too much material on the cheap payment, so I took it down. It was elecguitar and virtual instruments. That was when I began my interest in acoustic. And then I started new material but my compu commited suicide and that set me back a year....ie retired and living in the third world will do that. But it gave me time to write another dozen songs. So at present i've got my minimalist studio operative again, sadly with a loss of compu power, but still trying to up the game ....above the material means of my basic equipment. I've got about 20songs recorded so far ....but I'm not ready to load anything at this moment. I'll attempt another copyright first. I'll revive the thread when I do though, I promise...if I don't die first, or get banned ! Maybe 3 to 6 months for the first set.

Thanks for all the suggestion given, and to be given. It's really appreciated. k
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Old 01-08-2023, 08:01 PM
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...reviving. So what I've found that 's been working, and maybe I'm wrong and would like some opinions ....is panning as a simple solution. I was always stuck with the idea of leaving the voice track centered and just panning the guitar. But when I pan the voice 50-60% one way and the AG about the same in the opposite direction, I'm getting much better separation and it feels more like a 'live' event. Is this heresy or is it the simple solution for songs that don't have many competing tracks ...esp just guitar and voice?
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Old 01-08-2023, 09:50 PM
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...reviving. So what I've found that 's been working, and maybe I'm wrong and would like some opinions ....is panning as a simple solution. I was always stuck with the idea of leaving the voice track centered and just panning the guitar. But when I pan the voice 50-60% one way and the AG about the same in the opposite direction, I'm getting much better separation and it feels more like a 'live' event. Is this heresy or is it the simple solution for songs that don't have many competing tracks ...esp just guitar and voice?



vocals are generally centered. Not saying you can't pan them, but it's not typical.
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