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  #16  
Old 09-19-2011, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by sdelsolray View Post
Perhaps I should try some more spaced pair mic placements. I've never been able to find one that worked well with 100% L/R panning.
I'd recommend it for sure. I think you'd get a richer sound by getting the image you want from the mics instead of collapsing what the mics hear. Or if you just don't like spaced pairs, use X/Y or ORTF, which can sound great.

I've been using 4 mics for many things lately, a spaced pair, which I pan hard left and right (actually in Logic, with stereo tracks, I have no real option there - each mic goes to a side and that's it....). The other pair is set up as MS and is in the middle. That gives me the option of blending them to taste, including using it as a mono middle mic if I hear a "hole". But mostly, I'm pretty happy with the sound of the spaced mics.
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  #17  
Old 09-20-2011, 07:07 AM
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SD, how did you determine the exact right placement for the pairs? My question goes to the point that each mic and instrument has an area that's optimal and that's fairly subjective. Inches count. Would the Schoeps have sounded less punchy or carved if they were where either of the other two pairs we positioned? We can't say because they weren't in exactly the same place, and who's to say the best place would have been where either of the other two mics were...or somewhere in between. The devil is in the details.

I've worried over this point for years. If I position the mics where I want them and play three times, then my playing is the obvious variant. If I play once and position more than one pair, then their position is the variant.

Regards,

Ty Ford
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  #18  
Old 09-21-2011, 08:24 AM
Sage97 Sage97 is offline
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Sdelsolray,

How different is the M295 from the M300? Sorry for the vague question. I am not sure how else to ask it.
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Old 09-21-2011, 09:18 AM
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Sdelsolray,

How different is the M295 from the M300? Sorry for the vague question. I am not sure how else to ask it.

The M300 costs about $950.
The M295 costs about $1600.

That's a pretty big difference.

The M295 is a little more open and airy sounding and is easier to position for a good sound (less proximity effect for one thing).

I have made many recordings on both mikes and prefer using the M295s but both mikes are excellent. In your hands YMMV.
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  #20  
Old 09-21-2011, 09:32 AM
Sage97 Sage97 is offline
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Thanks Rick.

You mind so much sharing some of your clips so I can hear the difference between the two mics?
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  #21  
Old 09-21-2011, 09:48 AM
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It'd be interesting to hear the unpanned versions. To me, these don't sound as spacious as I'd want. I never pan tracks, I just adjust the mic position to get the stereo image I want, but of course, whatever works. Panning seems to change a lot as the mics interact, at least when I do it.
Doug,

I uploaded the 6 source files to the same location. They are in a folder called Samples A, B and C Source Files. They are raw except I left the front and rear fades in place and left the 60Hz bass cut in place. 24 bit/44.1k. The files with "12th fret" added to the titles are the right channels and the files with "LB" added (short for lower bout) to the titles are the left channels. The levels are not matched as closely as the first uploads.

As much as I like the spaced pair configuration, I've never been able to find mic positions that give a realistic stereo image if panned 100% left and right. I guess I just prefer a more mono-like image with a bit of stereo widening. That's what I hear when I listen to a live player.


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Steve, question on your mixes. You said you used a slight doubler effect on one. I couldn't hear it, but the mix sounded nice. if you don't mind, what is it and how is it set?
That's a Waves Doubler 4 modulator effects plug-in, used very tamely and sparingly.
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  #22  
Old 09-21-2011, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Ty Ford View Post
SD, how did you determine the exact right placement for the pairs? My question goes to the point that each mic and instrument has an area that's optimal and that's fairly subjective. Inches count. Would the Schoeps have sounded less punchy or carved if they were where either of the other two pairs we positioned? We can't say because they weren't in exactly the same place, and who's to say the best place would have been where either of the other two mics were...or somewhere in between. The devil is in the details.

I've worried over this point for years. If I position the mics where I want them and play three times, then my playing is the obvious variant. If I play once and position more than one pair, then their position is the variant.

Regards,

Ty Ford
It is a bit of a chicken and egg problem. For these samples, the three different mic pairs are positioned as close to each other as possible, i.e., the three right side mics are within 4" of each other and the three left side mics are within 4" of each other. The right trio of mics is about 42" from the left trio of mics.

I could have put the mics in different relative places, but that would be a subjective choice. In addition the mic that is furthest away would have two mics in front of it acting as barriers/reflectors. So, in a way, even though the mics are in the same place (almost), the mic positioning is the variant here (along with the different preamps used).
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  #23  
Old 09-21-2011, 09:58 AM
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Sdelsolray,

How different is the M295 from the M300? Sorry for the vague question. I am not sure how else to ask it.
Rick answered your question. He has pairs of each and knows them well.
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  #24  
Old 09-21-2011, 10:09 AM
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Thanks Rick.

You mind so much sharing some of your clips so I can hear the difference between the two mics?
Keep in mind that in any individual recording there are numerous variables besides mikes on how things sound. There is some reverb added on all the recordings.

All my Show and Tell posts over the last year and a half were via M295s.

My recordings on Guit Sense (on my website were via M300s)

One of my better M300 recordings, this particular clip came out open and airy (guitar used, song style, etc). Note: also a wav file which makes a bit
difference.
http://dcoombsguitar.com/Guitar%20Music/Rebecca.wav


Couple of M295 recordings:
http://dcoombsguitar.com/Guitar%20Music/Felicity.mp3

http://dcoombsguitar.com/Guitar%20Music/SustainMe.mp3
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  #25  
Old 09-21-2011, 11:14 AM
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They all sound exceptional. I wish I could sound like these. Obviously, the player has got a lot to do with these tones but very nice mics indeed. Was the M300 recorded in a pro sound booth?

Thanks again Rick.

Sdelsol,
Can't access your clips here at work so I will give them a listen when I get home.

Thanks both.
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Last edited by Sage97; 09-21-2011 at 11:33 AM.
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  #26  
Old 09-21-2011, 01:01 PM
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They all sound exceptional. I wish I could sound like these. Obviously, the player has got a lot to do with these tones but very nice mics indeed. Was the M300 recorded in a pro sound booth?

Thanks again Rick.

Sdelsol,
Can't access your clips here at work so I will give them a listen when I get home.

Thanks both.
Thanks. All my recordings are just done at home.
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  #27  
Old 09-21-2011, 01:03 PM
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Thanks. All my recordings are just done at home.
Double wow! Maybe there is hope for my recordings!

What type of room/sound treatment do you have?
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  #28  
Old 09-21-2011, 02:01 PM
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Double wow! Maybe there is hope for my recordings!

What type of room/sound treatment do you have?
I put up some acoustic panels and couple of years back. All
my earlier recordings were in an untreated room.
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  #29  
Old 09-21-2011, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by sdelsolray View Post
Doug,

I uploaded the 6 source files to the same location. .
Thanks, this may just be a matter of taste. I much prefer the unpanned sound of your raw files. More open and airy, more natural to my ear. The panned files sound narrow and constricted in comparison. But that's probably just me. I like a big sound. You do have a bit of a hole in the middle, just looking at it in some visualization tools, both your phase and stereo image looks quite different than mine, with a clear hole in the middle in yours that isn't there in mine, but then I think our "spaced" setup is slightly different.
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  #30  
Old 09-22-2011, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Ty Ford View Post
SD, how did you determine the exact right placement for the pairs? My question goes to the point that each mic and instrument has an area that's optimal and that's fairly subjective. Inches count. Would the Schoeps have sounded less punchy or carved if they were where either of the other two pairs we positioned? We can't say because they weren't in exactly the same place, and who's to say the best place would have been where either of the other two mics were...or somewhere in between. The devil is in the details.

I've worried over this point for years. If I position the mics where I want them and play three times, then my playing is the obvious variant. If I play once and position more than one pair, then their position is the variant.

Regards,

Ty Ford
I've not been following this thread completely but am chiming in anyway. My experience has been that no matter how "scientific" we would like mic placement to be, it isn't. The marvelous sound obtained on a given recording will probably not be completely repeatable even when in the same room, using the same player, instrument, mics, position, signal path, & recording device.
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