RODE NT3, Behringer B5, mic shootout on Taylor baritone!

[paulchevin]

I don't want to take anything away from the comments made by Ty and Chris. They are undoubtedly correct in saying that very expensive microphones will do a better job if you can afford them.

However, I still maintain that many of us simply can't justify spending thousands of pounds/dollars on microphones to record demos and the like - especially given the results that can be achieved with microphones such as Rode. Indeed, even hiring a single expensive microphone for a week costs as much as buying a cheaper one.

I would also remind people that Rode mixcrophones come with a 10 year guarantee! A while ago I bought a Rode NT2-A second hand and it proved to be faulty. Rode fixed it free of charge!

Just to prove that you DON'T need to spend a fortune on equipment in order to achieve a respectable sound, I thought I'd post a link to a recording made by a solo fingerstyle acoustic guitarist I have become friends with online. Michael Mucklow is based in New Mexico and is one of Walden's featured artists. He does most of his recording using a single Rode NT1-A and a Focusrite preamp. You'll find an example taken from one of his albums here:

http://www.waldenguitars.com/artists_mucklow.html

Would it have sounded better with a Neumann or a Schoeps? Probably......... but would most people have noticed the difference? Probably not.

Even some top producers use Rode microphones. If you check out post #16 in this thread, you'll find Bruce Swedien explaining how the Rode NT4 is frequently his first choice when recording acoustic guitar:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/bruce...crophones.html

I also have a pair of affordable Chinese-built Superlux S241 SDC's, which are very respectable. There is an example of an entire track recorded exclusively with Superlux microphones here:

http://www.superlux.us/demo.html

By all means try more expensive microphones if you can afford to, but please don't let anyone convince you that you HAVE to use an expensive microphone to produce a professional quality recording.

Paul

[Ty Ford]

Paul,

Have you heard your instrument recorded by a Neumann or Schoeps?

Best Regards,

Ty Ford

[moon]

Paul: I don't think this is an either/or argument. I want to know about both. I want to learn all I can about pro quality audio and then apply that knowledge with the best gear I can afford. A four-figure mic probably isn't on my horizon but I still like to hear about it - and I like to hear about the Rodes too.

Who's winning the argument? I declare you both winners for taking the time to share your experiences with everybody else on the forum

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by paulchevin

I don't want to take anything away from the comments made by Ty and Chris.

Don"t worry you're not. One can choose to ignore their comments but it subtracts nothing from the value.

They are undoubtedly correct in saying that very expensive microphones will do a better job if you can afford them.

They are also saying that ( I am going to add this caveat [ depending on ones end goal ] if your recording is simply be able to listen back for private user or recording as just a hobby or pop a vid up on Youtube and not really for producing anything for commercial, like making a CD to sell at gigs, or tracks for I tunes.etc etc.) then your statements have merit . But of course for that purpose and the price of a Rode nt 3, someone can simply get a little hand held digital recorder and be done with it.

However if ones goal are to eventually move to more a serious level of personal and/or especially commercial . Than the council of Ty's and Chris
observations might be well taken.

However, I still maintain that many of us simply can't justify spending thousands of pounds/dollars on microphones to record demos and the like

Of course every ones funding situation is different. Thus the suggestion for renting before purchase for the serious learning recordist.

ALSO, lets not forget the OP was about doing a shoot out on a $3,000.00 guitar.

AND therein lies a humorous paradox that periodically pops up.
Many acoustic guitar players already have expensive guitars or understand the cost to value ratio of multi thousand dollar guitars, yet fail to equate that same cost to value ratio to recording or live equipment.

-

especially given the results that can be achieved with microphones such as Rode. Indeed, even hiring a single expensive microphone for a week costs as much as buying a cheaper one.

Certainly good results can be achieved with less expensive gear. But in terms of money wisely spent ??? It again depends on ones goals. If someone is seriously searching for what will give them good results in their specific situation and be useful long term, perhaps one could hire 3 or 4 different mics for a for 1 day rental.
Because what Ty and Chris and others are saying is that, what will actually get "good results" first and Foremost, involves numerous variables like Player, Style,Room, Mic, Pre, Converters etc.etc. Thus the money spent to Experiment may actually be the wiser move in the long run. Rather than going thru the exercise of repeatedly buying cheap being dissatisfied and eventually spending as much or more than to simply start experimenting/ trying or renting first, and then making a more informed purchase once.

Just to prove that you DON'T need to spend a fortune on equipment in order to achieve a respectable sound,

The sound clips are fine However again very situation specific it proves Mr. Mucklow gets those results with his equipment in his specific situation.

Would it have sounded better with a Neumann or a Schoeps? Probably......... but would most people have noticed the difference? Probably not.

maybe yes maybe no, this seems a bit like speculation based on presumption .

By all means try more expensive microphones if you can afford to, but please don't let anyone convince you that you HAVE to use an expensive microphone to produce a professional quality recording.

Paul

I don't think anyone said " you HAVE to use an expensive microphone" What is being said is the simple common sense logic of the old adage. "You get what you pay for" Experiment more before buying -
buy less- buy more wisely.

[Brent Hutto]

It's a lot more fun to play a $3,000 guitar into a $100 microphone than to play a $100 guitar into a $3,000 microphone!

And that $3,000 guitar will sound good most anywhere you care to play. The whole idea of a buying or renting thousand-dollar-class microphones is predicated on a considerable effort and expense to create a great-sounding room.

But the point is well taken that if you're producing "professional" quality recorded content there's a lot of questions it makes sense to ask beyond which $200 microphone will sound better when pointed at your guitar.

I'll make one other semi-serious observation. If you're going as far as renting microphones, why not just rent a studio and a recording engineer while you're at it?

[Ty Ford]

Brent says: The whole idea of a buying or renting thousand-dollar-class microphones is predicated on a considerable effort and expense to create a great-sounding room.

And I gotta disagree with you to some degree. The WHOLE POINT of the cmc641 is that it's a supercardioid, so it ignores a lot of the room. And it does so in ways that make what you record sound a lot better than any other SD mic I have ever heard.

Ty Ford

[paulchevin]

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

Paul,

Have you heard your instrument recorded by a Neumann or Schoeps?

Best Regards,

Ty Ford

No, I haven't. Nor am I likely to, as I can't afford that type of money. Also, if I was to hire instead, I would need to hire 2 for several weeks, which would also be too expensive. Then we have to factor in the fact that no single microphone works well on every guitar, so I would probably need to end up hiring several different microphones to get the job done - yet more expense.

I don't doubt that my guitars would sound better with more expensive microphones. However, I can achieve more than adequate results on cheaper models....... and afford to have several different ones to cover the various options I need. In owning my own I also have the flexibility to record as and when I want to.

Like Brent, I would prefer to spend most of my available money on good guitars, because a good guitar will always sound better on a microphone that represents good value (eg a Rode) than a poor guitar will on an expensive microphone........ and I'll have more fun in the process of playing it!

As I said, there is plenty of merit in what you're saying. Equally, though, I hope you will see that for many readers your approach is not a realistic option. I don't feel that you have properly acknowledged this.

Paul

[Brent Hutto]

We all have our dreams and we all have our (constrained) abilities to realize those dreams...

Some people with half a dozen lovely and expensive guitars in their living room dream of a seventh and and eighth and so on. Others are content with one lovely and not-so-expensive guitar (me).

Some dream of a mic locker that can make any acoustic instrument sound like itself (or better!) on tape. Others dream of being able to make a recording that captures their playing fairly accurately using gear that costs less than a weekend at a fancy resort.

This discussion has a little something for every dream, it seems.

[alohachris]

Aloha Brent,

Very Well Said. Different Strokes!

Question: Where does the poem at the bottom of your posts come from?

Mahalo,

alohachris

PS: Try out a CMC641 just for fun sometime. It changed my ears & my musical life. -alohachris-

[Brent Hutto]

Originally Posted by alohachris

Question: Where does the poem at the bottom of your posts come from?

It's the last verse of a Jeffrey Foucault song called Northbound 35, as fine a piece of songwriting as I know. My favorite rendition of it is on an all-covers album by Richard Shindell, one of my favorite singers.

Here's a YouTube of him doing it live, don't watch it when you're in a crying mood. The verse that starts

It's just flashes that we own
Little snapshots
Made from breath and from bone...

absolutely kills me. I couldn't bear to use it as my .sig quote and see it every day.

[Ty Ford]

Paul,

I do think you're being a little sticky about not renting one, but I don't know (and don't need to know) your personal financial status. I'm very sorry. My point is that unless you've heard what one of these sounds like, you can't really go on about how good another mic is because you don't have a solid basis for comparison.

Have you inquired as to what it would cost to rent one over there? How much would it cost? I just get the feeling that you are digging in your heels as an exercise in principle and cutting off your nose to spite your face. Sorry if that saying doesn't translate well. It's something we say here in the US to indicate that someone disadvantages him/herself in order to do harm to an adversary.

I see/read a lot of "Here's a Great Mic" comments on forums and it makes me shake my head because many times I know what that mic sounds like and where one can find a better one, sometimes for even LESS money. The SP-1, comes to mind. It's not a Schoeps. It's not a Neumann. It costs $50 USD. It should cost a lot more.

Brent, I don't have a deep locker of costly mics and I own one good acoustic guitar, one near-enough good 12 string and a nice semi acoustic Tele. I'm a believer that a few good things are enough. And actually some nasty sounding acoustic guitars really do better with a lo-fi mic. A ribbon mic can do wonders to tame them.

Best Regards,

Ty Ford

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Brent Hutto

It's a lot more fun to play a $3,000 guitar into a $100 microphone than to play a $100 guitar into a $3,000 microphone!

perhaps but that really wasn't the point it was more along the lines of the weakest link and perceptions of what's worth spending money on. I know you were quasi injecting a bit of humor into your observation. But Honestly That was not my experience, while it's certainly fun to play my guitar any where . It was really not much fun to listen to recordings I made with my Taylor through my SM 57 . And on another light note , I did however have exactly one of those "Moments" Ty describes in his post # 17 The first time I heard my voice and Taylor through a U 87
(Admittedly in a very good room) It was "Holy molely" this thing sounds great!! and I don't suck quite as bad as I thought.

And that $3,000 guitar will sound good most anywhere you care to play. The whole idea of a buying or renting thousand-dollar-class microphones is predicated on a considerable effort and expense to create a great-sounding room.

Indeed this is a good point that doing anything to help the room even if it is just blankets and gobos is time and money well spent I agree.

[Sage97]

Originally Posted by Brent Hutto

We all have our dreams and we all have our (constrained) abilities to realize those dreams...

Some people with half a dozen lovely and expensive guitars in their living room dream of a seventh and and eighth and so on. Others are content with one lovely and not-so-expensive guitar (me).

Some dream of a mic locker that can make any acoustic instrument sound like itself (or better!) on tape. Others dream of being able to make a recording that captures their playing fairly accurately using gear that costs less than a weekend at a fancy resort.

This discussion has a little something for every dream, it seems.

Right on the money!

I am dreaming about the CMC641. I'll have to do a search when I get home and see if someone has a soundclip using this mic in a home recording set up.

[alohachris]

Aloha Sage,

RE: Sharing original & copyrighted music online? I don't do it. There are many great reasons for me not to do it as I see it. I share opinions, ideas & experiences about gear, but no music.

However, here are some clips from Doug Young, using his CMC641's.

The first clip, in playing his beautiful original piece, "Missing You," Doug is using a CMC641, stacked together with another CMC6 - but this time using a CK8 capsule for Mid-Side configuration. Listen to the clarity & directness on that beautiful Cedar/Koa Ryan guitar:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0Bbgucd7K4

In the second example, Doug play's several little pieces & runs to capture & demonstrate the sound of a very nice Lowden "Pierre Bensusan" Adi/Hondo RW he's reviewing for AGF (scroll down to the video).

Even though this is an mp3. file & probably further compressed to work as an insert in the AGF video format, the reason that guitar sounds so good ....is because of the spaced pair of CMC641's that Doug uses to capture its natural sound. Listen to how it captures the balance & sustain of that great guitar:

http://www.acguitar.com/article/defa...rticleid=25665

Even in mp3. listening through computer speakers, you can tell how amazing those mic's are on acoustic guitar.

In person, with a lil room treatment & just about ANY pro mic preamp? It's simply astonishing - so smooth & detailed without that edginess that most cheap Chinese SD's exhibit, & completely neutral w/o coloration! Ya gotta work a bit to find the sweet spot though with a CMC641 because it is a narrow hypercardioid.

Hope that helps, Sage. I know it won't help the OP or anyone else here, but what the heck. And thanks to Doug for sharing his music on Youtube & AGF using his CMC641's.

alohachris

[Sage97]

Originally Posted by alohachris

Aloha Sage,

RE: Sharing original & copyrighted music online? I don't do it. There are many great reasons for me not to do it as I see it. I share opinions, ideas & experiences about gear, but no music.

Hope that helps, Sage. I know it won't help the OP or anyone else here, but what the heck. And thanks to Doug for sharing his music on Youtube & AGF using his CMC641's.

alohachris

Hi Chris,

I wasn't asking for one of your masterpieces, just a G C D progression to hear the mic.

You ain't kidding. These clips sure do sound wonderful. I'll keep my eye out for a good deal and start buying lottery tickets. Who knows I just might sound like like Doug Young playing his Ryan. You and others have led me to the iMac/Apogee Duet combo. I know you know your gear and really appreciate your way of sharing your knowledge and experience in a generous, non-condescending manner.

So there you go folks! Whether or not these mics are worth it is up to individual goals and circumstances. They sure sound a lot better than what I've got but the fact that I still can't afford them remains the same.

Thank you Chris and thank you OP for your patience.