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  #31  
Old 08-02-2010, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Cue Zephyr View Post
. Andy McKee's recording tone is still my favorite though.
On Andy's latest, he's using a single mic and a K&K pickup. Certainly an example of non-true stereo. But it sounds good to me.
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  #32  
Old 08-02-2010, 02:34 PM
Cue Zephyr Cue Zephyr is offline
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Doug, do you have any clue what kind of mic that was?
And, more importantly, how that non-true stereo sound was achieved?
I like the one mic approach, as you get the guitar absolutely centered which I think is very important for this kind of music. The album version of Art of Motion is a good example of a moving stereo field. It shifts a bit left and right. I find it especially annoying when listening on headphones.
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  #33  
Old 08-02-2010, 03:39 PM
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On Joyland, Andy used a Lauten mic, but I don't know which one, or how the sources were blended. Clearly it's not pickup on one side/mic on the other. In fact, just looking at those tracks, they may be mixed in mono, with some reverb creating the space.

That spot in Art of Motion sounds like an edit, really obvious. It's easy to get stereo field shifts when you edit multiple takes together if you're not listening for it. Casually listening on most people's stereos, you might not hear it, but there are other recordings out there that have stuff like this and it can really stick out over studio monitors or headphones.
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  #34  
Old 08-02-2010, 05:04 PM
Cue Zephyr Cue Zephyr is offline
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I'll look into that Lauten mic, I think a brand is enough for now (just out of curiosity - my Oktava and CAD serve me well).

I don't have a great pick-up in my guitar but I would definitely like to try and use it for recording.

What spot in AoM are you referring to? I was thinking of those hard strums he does in that song - they make the stereo shift to the right because of that. I have a set of 'studio' monitors and a set of studio headphones, it indeed sticks out but I did not think of it as being an edit.
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  #35  
Old 08-02-2010, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Cue Zephyr View Post
What spot in AoM are you referring to? I was thinking of those hard strums he does in that song - they make the stereo shift to the right because of that.
yep. There's a few other spots, too. They might not be edits, but it's so abrupt, and the sound just shifts dramamtically from being slightly left-centered to almost entirely on the right, and then back. Maybe it's the just the strength of the strums, but it reminds of edits I've heard (and even tried to do myself) from multiple takes where the stereo field has changed.
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  #36  
Old 08-02-2010, 07:51 PM
Cue Zephyr Cue Zephyr is offline
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I actually think it's the strength of the strumming if you put it like that.
Checking the Lauten website, I think it might have been the Horizon type.
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  #37  
Old 08-03-2010, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Cue Zephyr View Post
Checking the Lauten website, I think it might have been the Horizon type.
From the reviews I've been reading in magazines and the response on gearslutz.com, this would be my hunch, too. I've yet to hear the Lauten series, but the reviews certainly are favorable, and it's a new brand I'm interested in. I'd certainly love to hear your take on the mic, if and when you get it, Cue.
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  #38  
Old 08-03-2010, 05:42 PM
Cue Zephyr Cue Zephyr is offline
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Howdy Kurt,
Haven't seen you on GS. But then again, that forum is HUGE. I also have yet to hear them. Was hoping Sound Pure studios had a demonstration/review of one of their microphones, but I can't seem to find one. Sound Pure Studio got me interested in a couple other microphones though:
Mojave MA-200 (was that you with that mic, AlohaChris?), and the MA-201
CharterOak (also new and pretty unknown as far as I am aware) e700
Earthworks QTC-40 (seem like beautiful omni mics)

... and some others I have forgotten about.

If I can scrape the cash together at some point I probably will get one of the Lautens for my mic locker, as well as those mentioned above, with perhaps a Neumann, Gefell or Schoeps here and there.

Yes, that will take forever indeed.

No, I will first try to get a higher grade better spec (for me and my style) acoustic, and then will worry about getting another one of the Oktava MK-012 (love it so much, and can do many 'true-er' stereo setups, and then also have a very nice pair of OH mics) and another CAD M179 (interested in blumlein-XY and can function as tom mics).
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  #39  
Old 08-03-2010, 07:47 PM
Fran Guidry Fran Guidry is offline
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Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Indeed splitting hairs. It is pretty archaic to define and limit the use of the word "stereo" to the early Greeks use of the word . If I remember correctly microphones and recording came a couple of years later. Updating commonly understood usage of a word every few hundred years is helpful.

However if you prefer use the word "stereophonic". Pulled this definition off the internet:
"ster·e·o·phon·ic
–adjective
pertaining to a system of sound recording or reproduction using two or more separate channels to produce a more realistic effect by capturing the spatial dimensions of a performance (the location of performers as well as their acoustic surroundings), used esp. with high-fidelity recordings and reproduction systems ( opposed to monophonic)"
Since the invention of stereophonic sound dates to the 1930s, we have about 20 more years before we need to update, then. <grin>

Fran
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  #40  
Old 08-03-2010, 07:54 PM
Fran Guidry Fran Guidry is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
yep. There's a few other spots, too. They might not be edits, but it's so abrupt, and the sound just shifts dramamtically from being slightly left-centered to almost entirely on the right, and then back. Maybe it's the just the strength of the strums, but it reminds of edits I've heard (and even tried to do myself) from multiple takes where the stereo field has changed.
I think these kinds of moving image problems are one reason for preferring real stereo mic techniques.

And I wouldn't necessarily agree that stereo mic arrangements require a large distance. One rule of thumb says the distance should equal the length of the source, so a couple of feet would cover most guitars.

Fran
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  #41  
Old 08-03-2010, 11:38 PM
alohachris alohachris is offline
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Default Aloha Cue,

Aloha Cue,

Re Mics:

The Mojave MA-200 tube condenser - My voice chose it for recording vocals. Then I loved it on acoustic guitar and had to get another one (from Ryan Alexander) for stereo.

I like it more for strumming and flatpicking than for detailed fingerpicking. Can't beat the Schoeps CMC641's for that application. They're my favorites.

When I get an Ensemble multi-channel interface, I'd like to try the Schoeps X/Y'd in front of the sweet spot of my smaller guitars (about 12" out from the 18th fret, and then add the Mojave's in a very widely spaced pair about 5-8' out and see what I'll get. I once used a pair of U87's and some AKG 452's in such a recording project at a studio in '81 and loved the result. Got the MA-200's used for just $750 used each (thanks Ryan!). New, the price just went up a hundred to $1095.

The only downside to the MA-200 (if you can call it that) is that it only offers a cardioid pattern, not multi-patterns. But for my uses, I don't need that from that particular mic. Vocals are my primary application for them and I really like the results I'm getting.

Check out sample number 3 here:

http://mojaveaudio.com/rectips-acousticgutiar.html

Hey Cue, speaking of GS, did you see that M179 for sale at $100 on page 3! You could afford that for your second one, right? Check it out.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gears...lar-mount.html

Ah shucks! Looks like it just sold as I was writing this. Too bad!

All the best to you in Wednesday, Cue. You'll get into the great stuff soon enough, my friend. Just enjoy the music more than the recording and you'll have a great time doing this your whole life. It only matters what's right for your ears!

alohachris

Last edited by alohachris; 08-03-2010 at 11:45 PM.
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  #42  
Old 08-04-2010, 07:54 AM
Cue Zephyr Cue Zephyr is offline
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Although I have the CAD my voice still seems to like that Oktava MK-319 I have. I actually like the CAD when it's in figure-8. It adds some natural lows to my voice which sounds really sweet. I used the same set-up when that singer-songwriter (female) came over to record. It really shone on her voice. Anyhow, probably will want the multi-pattern capability. Oh, if only there was a multi-pattern version of the Oktava MK-105...

Btw, I love that 3rd sample, it sounds amazing. It's what I do with my 012 and 179. I think they are a close enough match to work for this kind of application. Although, I still want that second Oktava MK-012.

And GAH what a bummer. Should keep a closer watch on the classifieds there.
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  #43  
Old 08-06-2010, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alohachris View Post
The Mojave MA-200 tube condenser - My voice chose it for recording vocals. Then I loved it on acoustic guitar and had to get another one (from Ryan Alexander) for stereo.
Cue, I had the chance to use the MA-200 at a friend's studio in Grand Rapids last fall. I'd tend to agree with Chris: It's certainly a nice mic for the money, and felt equally rich to me on acoustic guitar and my voice (and my friend's -- I'm a baritone, he's a tenor). The fixed cardioid pattern on the Mojave is what compelled me to choose a different, multiple-pattern LDC mic.

As to gearslutz, I tend to lurk. There's so much info there to filter and sort through as is (absorbing and discarding as you go), and I just don't believe I have much, if anything, to add in most cases that hasn't already been expressed. That said -- and likely, as you know, from being on the site -- the Charter Oaks mics get good press, but I've yet to use one.

Enjoy the search!!!
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  #44  
Old 08-09-2010, 09:10 AM
Cue Zephyr Cue Zephyr is offline
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Here's more:
MK-012 @ 12th fret, M179 @ bridge
http://www.box.net/shared/5lcrbn2obg
MK-012 & M179 in M-S
http://www.box.net/shared/sgjvmebmv1
MK-012 & M179 in X-Y
http://www.box.net/shared/35zsvkarqu

If you're wondering, yes - that is an excerpt of Memories of the Future.
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  #45  
Old 08-10-2010, 01:52 AM
alohachris alohachris is offline
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Default Cue, That's Great!

Aloha Cue,

That was great. Great playing and samples! I could really hear the advantages & disadvantages for each miking pattern.

Obviously, as Doug has pointed out, the balance of a spaced pair w/ S/D at 12th and L/D at the bridge is in question. Sounded nice, but the body and bass definitely came from the right speaker, that oft-reported bridge side bias.

The M/S pattern was the most centered and direct. Makes me want to spring for the ribbon Schoeps cap right now and explore it. Really nice result on that song. I'm becoming an M/S fan.

As difficult as it is to X-Y an S/D and L/D, I thought that the third sample captured more nuances of your guitar, had a more open sound, and was balanced and yet wider than the M/S pattern.

But I liked them all. You're really dialing in your pair of mics and recording techniques for some very nice acoustic sounds, Cue. And of course, your playing is great. What was the exact mic positioning for each pattern?

All the best. Thanks for sharing your quick evolution here with us. You're hunch about M/S and ribbons is paying dividends already, for me as well.

Great samples! I'd like to hear those three with a very light delay or convolution reverb on them, just a tad. It might accentuate the taps and harmonics a bit more. Great job, Cue!

Mahalo a Nui,
alohachris

Last edited by alohachris; 08-10-2010 at 02:06 AM.
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