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  #16  
Old 04-10-2010, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Sorry not quite sure what you are getting at here.
To clarify : If you record one source into one mic and lay that on one track, what you will not have, is any phase issues recorded into that track.

If you copy that track , what you will have is two tracks with no phase issues recorded into them.

However If you record one source into two mics what you will have is phase issues recorded into the mix weather one track or two .

Not that someone might not want a particular sound( stereo effect etc.) with the phase issues being less important to them that the desired effect .

So with that in mind

I believe that the phase issues from delaying one track in milliseconds (if any ) are far more negligible, then the inherent phase issues from recording one source into two mics.
So the only possible phase issue that theoretically could be present would be those while listening, having the sound reach one ear from one speaker slightly delayed from the sound from the other speaker reaching the other ear . IMO this results in achieving the wide stereo effect while have a cleaner mix .
It seems to me that the phase issue in doubling a track and delaying one could be more noticeable when going back to mono as it would be a frequency dependent amplification or diminishment of the waveform that would be precisely constant for each particular frequency over time. In either case in stereo phase varience is creating space and how convincing and stable a source’s position exists in that space. An extra advantage of two mikes while in the stereo mode in terms of overall sence of depth, though not location, is the different tonality that exists in right and left channels. Both methods can work well. Tweak to taste.
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Last edited by rick-slo; 04-10-2010 at 11:45 PM.
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  #17  
Old 04-11-2010, 12:18 AM
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Most tricks to fake stereo, like slipping tracks, etc, end up sounding very noticeable to me. They sound dramatic at first, but once you tune into them, you can recognize them for what they are, and therefore are distracting. I've heard some very nice solo guitar recordings that were done with 1 mic, and simply had some reverb and ambience applied, which to my ear is a far better way to simulate stereo. You basically hear a point source in a "room", artificially created by the reverb. There are some free IRs out there that do a great job of this. Just put the single source "in a room" with a good stereo reverb.

On the other hand, I almost always prefer a true stereo recording, with 2 mics. We have 2 ears, and 2 mics comes closest to mimicing that. The phase issues with 2 mics tends to be exaggerated, I think. It's a real issue, but if you use any of the common micing techniques, the effect will be minimal. Phase differences are part of what gives an image it's stereo-ness, and are part of what our ears use as cues as well. It's only a problem if you do something that's extreme. Otherwise, slight phase and volume variations are part of a natural part of a realistic sound of a guitar. Every part of the guitar vibrates, and not every part is in phase, so even when listening to your guitar when you're playing, you're hearing phase differences, and they contribute to why the guitar sounds good!
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  #18  
Old 04-11-2010, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
It seems to me that the phase issue in doubling a track and delaying one could be more noticeable when going back to mono as it would be a frequency dependent amplification or diminishment of the waveform that would be precisely constant for each particular frequency over time. In either case in stereo phase varience is creating space and how convincing and stable a source’s position exists in that space. An extra advantage of two mikes while in the stereo mode in terms of overall sence of depth, though not location, is the different tonality that exists in right and left channels. Both methods can work well. Tweak to taste.
Ahh I get your point and perhaps that's so. I only use this method if I am going to leave the gtr mixed back in stereo, or perhaps mixed back panned hard left and hard right, would be more accurate.

Of course it comes down in the end, to personal taste and what sound one is trying to achieve. I do not see it as a question of right or wrong, better or worse, simply another tool in the producers arsenal.

What led me try this method was two things actually First the goal being a wide, big, clean guitar sound. with the big being a primary goal. Second when I started experimenting with summing to mono. I found that two my ears, there was more phase issues going on in the the two mic method I was using, than when using the one mic and dup method. There are of course other methods one might choose, for different desired results. Thus the beauty of art.
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  #19  
Old 04-11-2010, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
Most tricks to fake stereo, like slipping tracks, etc, end up sounding very noticeable to me. They sound dramatic at first, but once you tune into them, you can recognize them for what they are, and therefore are distracting. I've heard some very nice solo guitar recordings that were done with 1 mic, and simply had some reverb and ambience applied, which to my ear is a far better way to simulate stereo. You basically hear a point source in a "room", artificially created by the reverb. There are some free IRs out there that do a great job of this. Just put the single source "in a room" with a good stereo reverb.

On the other hand, I almost always prefer a true stereo recording, with 2 mics. We have 2 ears, and 2 mics comes closest to mimicing that. The phase issues with 2 mics tends to be exaggerated, I think. It's a real issue, but if you use any of the common micing techniques, the effect will be minimal. Phase differences are part of what gives an image it's stereo-ness, and are part of what our ears use as cues as well. It's only a problem if you do something that's extreme. Otherwise, slight phase and volume variations are part of a natural part of a realistic sound of a guitar. Every part of the guitar vibrates, and not every part is in phase, so even when listening to your guitar when you're playing, you're hearing phase differences, and they contribute to why the guitar sounds good!
Its interesting how different people view things differently. For example the way I see it. We have 2 ears which gives us the psycho acoustic ability to localize one sound source, to one location. So to me ,any manipulation of a single sound source out to a stereo field could be considered fake, to one degree or another. For me the only " true stereo" representation is of a multiple source, across a stereo field , like an orchestra. But that's just me.
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  #20  
Old 04-11-2010, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
So to me ,any manipulation of a single sound source out to a stereo field could be considered fake, to one degree or another. .
Ah, but the guitar isn't a single point sound source, nor are most solo instruments. And even if it was, what you hear when you play it is the way it interacts with the room, and that becomes part of the sound. Figuring out how to convey that to a listener, who is listening over unknown speakers in an unknown room is part of the art and challenge of recording. Maybe 1 mic does what you want, maybe it takes 2, maybe more. One of the nicer sounding solo guitar records I've heard lately is Tony McManus's the Maker's Mark. Very natural, "you are there" sound. I can't locate the photo at the moment, but he's using 6 mics in the oddball-est setup I've ever seen. Whatever works! And of course, it all depends on what sound you're going for. I've yet to achieve a sound I really like for my own recordings with 1 mic, but it may just be that that's not the sound I hear in my head.
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  #21  
Old 04-12-2010, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb Hunter View Post
Using unmatched microphones for stereo recordings can result in a ping-pong effect where notes seem to bounce left and right. \U.
I have double miced guitars many times and have gotten a nice spread and no ping-ponging.

Regards,

Ty Ford
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  #22  
Old 04-12-2010, 08:30 AM
Herb Hunter Herb Hunter is offline
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Originally Posted by Ty Ford View Post
I have double miced guitars many times and have gotten a nice spread and no ping-ponging.

Regards,

Ty Ford
I have no doubt that others have had the same experience as you, however, manufacturers offer matched sets of microphones for a reason.
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  #23  
Old 04-12-2010, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
Ah, but the guitar isn't a single point sound source, nor are most solo instruments. And even if it was, what you hear when you play it is the way it interacts with the room, and that becomes part of the sound. Figuring out how to convey that to a listener, who is listening over unknown speakers in an unknown room is part of the art and challenge of recording. Maybe 1 mic does what you want, maybe it takes 2, maybe more. One of the nicer sounding solo guitar records I've heard lately is Tony McManus's the Maker's Mark. Very natural, "you are there" sound. I can't locate the photo at the moment, but he's using 6 mics in the oddball-est setup I've ever seen. Whatever works! And of course, it all depends on what sound you're going for. I've yet to achieve a sound I really like for my own recordings with 1 mic, but it may just be that that's not the sound I hear in my head.
In the interest of an informed discussion on various techniques
It sounds like your desired goal , is to replicate the sound you are hearing while playing correct ? So I am curious what is the exact configuration you use ?
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  #24  
Old 04-12-2010, 09:42 AM
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KeyWind,

Mono or stereo both work. Record the way that sounds good to you.
For myself with the recording results I get I feel stereo sound better and more realistic.

For example this stereo recording I did with a spaced pair of mikes sounds tonally just like the guitar does live
http://dcoombsguitar.com/Guitar%20Music/SayItOut.mp3

I tried mono and have taken stereo recording such as the one above and split right and left tracks and listened in mono and to me it just never sounded quite right.
Since the sound of a guitar emanates from the from a broad area anything miked at the usual recording distance sounds a bit phasey to me. Listening to mono through right and left ears it still sounds phasey. Recorded in stereo that phasey sound more or less becomes interpreted by the ears as a sense of space.

Since when playing the guitar live I hear it through right and left ears and since the right and left hears are hearing a different sound due to where they are positioned and pointed stereo recording just sounds more natural to me.

Mono recording is great and easier to work with when the guitar is part of a mix and you want the guitar sound to sit in a particular position in the overall ensemble.
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  #25  
Old 04-12-2010, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
In the interest of an informed discussion on various techniques
It sounds like your desired goal , is to replicate the sound you are hearing while playing correct ? So I am curious what is the exact configuration you use ?
Right, that's an important point, of course. Not everyone wants the same sound, and there are lots of good sounds that aren't natural at all. I play solo fingerstyle guitar, and that's usually recorded in stereo by every solo fingerstyle artist I know of, and most - tho not all - want to reproduce the natural sound of the acoustic guitar. Different styles may have different expected approaches.

I've tried lots of micing approaches; the two that I mostly use today are M/S (usually with a pair of Schoeps), and spaced pairs (with the schoeps or a pair of Brauners). M/S is especially useful because it give you a choice. You actually have to get a good mono sound first, with the mid mic, and you can choose to leave it mono when you mix, or bring in the side mic for as much or little stereo sound as you want. It gives you that centered, focused sound of mono, with the sense of space of a stereo setup. On the other hand it doesn't sound as spacious as spaced pairs. Sometimes I record with both (4 mics) and either choose or blend as needed.

When I play guitar, I feel like the sound is in 3D all around me . Stereo does a relatively mediocre job of reproducing that sound in 2D, and mono takes it down to 1D. But sometimes that's what you want - mono's probably the right way to go if the acoustic is just one instrument in a mix, but I almost never record that type of music anymore.
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  #26  
Old 04-12-2010, 04:40 PM
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I have no doubt that others have had the same experience as you, however, manufacturers offer matched sets of microphones for a reason.
For symmetrical sound sources (and because some people think a matched pair is best in ANY case.) I know. I've been reviewing mics for a living for over 20 years for trade magazines and have had the great opportunity to talk to the tonemeisters from AKG, Neumann and Schoeps.

If you were really hinky about symmetry it would make more sense to XY the mics vertically across the bouts rather than bottom to top. That's a tip I got for George Massenburg. Once you accept that paradigm, though, it's difficult to get over concerned about matching pair.

At this point, I don't think Neumann or AKG even offer matching pairs. They claim the tolerances are tight enough mic to mic so it doesn't matter. When I bought my second schoeps, I was told they checked the curve on the one I had bought so they could choose a proper mate.

Regards,

Ty Ford
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  #27  
Old 04-12-2010, 05:21 PM
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We just bought a matched pair of AKG C451Bs.

Bob
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  #28  
Old 04-12-2010, 06:28 PM
Dark Eyed Junko Dark Eyed Junko is offline
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Sometimes I'll record with one mic and the guitar plugged in. Then the two tracks can be EQ'ed, blended and panned to taste (plus, maybe a little reverb on the plugged in one). It just gives a slightly different quality from using two mics, but it still sounds "acoustic" to most ears. Also, it's like getting twice the mic without twice the room noise.
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  #29  
Old 04-12-2010, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
KeyWind,

Mono or stereo both work. Record the way that sounds good to you.
For myself with the recording results I get I feel stereo sound better and more realistic.

For example this stereo recording I did with a spaced pair of mikes sounds tonally just like the guitar does live
http://dcoombsguitar.com/Guitar%20Music/SayItOut.mp3
Nice recording. So this was a spaced pair , if I might ask what mic's in what configuration? and is there a pre amp?

I would say that we are indeed after different sounds or perhaps different emphasis for the sound . My recording efforts are more in the singer/songwriter arena with the guitar as the main musical instrument but still must be part of a mix and must support the vocal as in these recordings ( have to hit the triangle play button upper left) http://www.reverbnation.com/tunepak/2556383
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  #30  
Old 04-12-2010, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
Right, that's an important point, of course. Not everyone wants the same sound, and there are lots of good sounds that aren't natural at all.
I've tried lots of micing approaches; the two that I mostly use today are M/S (usually with a pair of Schoeps), and spaced pairs (with the schoeps or a pair of Brauners).
So you do not use XY ? And I am curious which Schoeps and which Brauners ?
I happen to use a Brauner Phantom V, for vocals
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