Latency using your DAW

[paulp1960]

For a couple of years I've been playing my electric guitars through the Scuffham Amps S-Gear plugin. I'm using Logic Pro X recording at 44.1 Khz 24 bit with a buffer size of 32 samples.
I've never really noticed this level of latency affecting my playing and very much enjoy the tones S-Gear can produce.

So yesterday for a change I decided to record my Yamaha AC3M acoustic guitar through one of my condenser mics monitoring on my trusty Sennheiser HD25 headphones. Of course the latency should be similar to using my electric guitars apart from the distance of the mic to the acoustic guitar which if 1 foot from my acoustic guitar (approx) should only add around 1 ms of latency.

To my surprise I didn't like the setup at all trying to play some fast intricate strumming and picking over a Logic Pro X drummer track. It really affected my timing in a way I've never experienced with the electric guitar.

It got me thinking I might go back to using an analog mixer to create my monitoring mix while tracking.

[KevWind]

Couple thoughts

I don't use Logic I am guessing it has automatic delay compensation and perhaps "direct input monitoring" ?

But in general.

With 32 samples you should not be having noticeable delay issues,,,, 256 possible slight phasing like a very short slap delay ,,, 128 maybe if your really sensitive,,,,, but not 32

Also I would doubt 1 ft mic distance would be noticeable either and going to mixer will not change that.

First thing I would do is mute the drum track and see if you can hear any delay with just your acoustic

If you don't notice any with the drums gone , I would suggest something is amiss in perhaps the delay compensation settings or functions. Or possibly routing

If the delay is still there, I would definitely recheck and or reset all your routing something may have inadvertently changed (I have had that cause latency before)

And maybe you know this but there is also the option to "trash the preferences" which will reset logic if there is a corrupted preference file

[Bob Womack]

Ah, Kev, you beat me to it!

Here is where a certain level of sophistication is necessary to overcome a problem. Let's go back to the early days of analog recording to explain the problem and solution. At the beginning of analog recording a certain upstart named Les Paul began building up multiple tracks into guitar symphonies. He was doing it by "bouncing," playing from one tape recording and recording it and a new performance onto another. Besides the build-up of his he also experienced loss of fidelity. The problem was that the record and playback heads on a recorder were at two different locations causing a delay as the tape traveled from one to the other. If you listened to the play head and recorded a new part it was automatically out of sync with the old part. To fix that, Les convinced the engineers at Ampex to create a system with the ability to monitor off the record head right up to the point where you went into record mode. The system then switched to send the signal from the input preamp directly to the output amp of the channel. An engineer named Ross Smith created it. It was called "Sel-Sync" and it revolutionized the process of one-man recording.

You need DAW software that does the same thing. The basis of this is called "ASIO Direct Monitoring" or "Low-Latency Monitoring" and it is basically routing the digital input of the DAW to its output, skipping all the processing of the DAW and the latency it induces. The only latency is the small amount induced by the A-to-D and D-to-A processes. Coupled with this is a software system called "Tape Machine Monitoring" on the channel where, as the transport moves it plays the output of the DAW track up to the instant where you punch in and then switches to direct monitoring.

That is the basic level of technology that will solve your monitoring problems completely. I hope that helps!

Bob

[paulp1960]

Thanks Kev and Bob, I've had a eureka moment and think I know the answer.

At 32 samples my Daw is reporting 5.8 ms for the round trip from input to output. Now when I play midi keyboard or electric guitar monitoring through headphones I don't really notice the latency.

The big difference with recording acoustic guitar this way is that the acoustic guitar is loud enough for me to hear and feel it despite wearing closed headphones. Assuming the 1 ft mic distance takes my round trip latency to around 7 ms total. So everything I play on the acoustic guitar I get to hear twice with a 7 ms delay between original sound and headphone monitoring feed. In effect because I can hear and feel the original sound I can feel this smearing effect which is enough to ruin my groove and upset my timing.

I really think this is what's happening.

[anton]

What audio interface are you using? Don't most interfaces come with some sort of virtual mixing software? That allows you to hear the input from the mic, audio from your DAW, and adjust the levels of each in the virtual mixer. For my RME interface that is Total Mix.

I could also be totally wrong, if you are trying to monitor directly through Logic that might require something different.

[Doug Young]

Be sure to turn on "Low Latency Mode", under Logic's Record menu. I think what it does is mainly bypass all plugins and any latency adjustment it's doing. Lowest buffer size you can manage (sounds like you have). Also be sure to use direct monitoring - don't listen to your guitar after it's gone thru Logic, listen direct.

[paulp1960]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Be sure to turn on "Low Latency Mode", under Logic's Record menu. I think what it does is mainly bypass all plugins and any latency adjustment it's doing. Lowest buffer size you can manage (sounds like you have). Also be sure to use direct monitoring - don't listen to your guitar after it's gone thru Logic, listen direct.

Thanks Doug, I'm already doing what you say. But of course for electric guitar or bass I have to monitor through Logic in order to get my guitar tone. And like I said I don't notice the latency with electric guitars or midi tracks.

I was just surprised when I tried to record acoustic guitar I was unable to play properly. I find the same tracking vocals through 6 or 7 ms of latency in the headphone mix and I've read on other forums that it is quite common for singers to experience difficulties with latency in their monitor mix.

Next time (recording acoustic guitar) I'll switch off monitoring through Logic and use the mix knob on the audio interface instead. Or I could use my RME Babyface interface and use the Total Mix application to create a lower latency monitor feed.

[Doug Young]

I do still get some latency in Logic even with all those settings (on the recording, not while monitoring), and sometimes have to slip overdbubbed tracks a bit to compensate. There's also a delay offset on each track you can use, but I find it easier to just align them manually. The delay seems to have a bit to do with the interface. I have 2: Apogee Ensemble, and UAD Apollo. The Apogee tends to create a bigger latency. I used to use an RME AES setuo with an interface card in the computer, and I don't recall having any latency issues with that at all.

I keep meaning to dig into what else I could do to improve this, but I overdub so rarely, it's not high on my list. Does seem like it should be better than it is, tho, so I may be missing something.

[Al Acuff]

I've been down this digital latency road you're on and here is what worked best for me in the end: Direct hardware monitoring.

You'll need a microphone preamp with dual outputs. Typically these will be XLR and 1/4" jacks. Send the XLR output to line level inputs on your interface and send the other 1/4" output to a small mixer. Use the mixer's headphone jack for monitoring directly from your mic preamps. No latency!

I'm happy using a small Allen & Heath Zed6FX mixer for my headphone mix. I like this set-up because it lets me eq and add reverb to the headphone mix while still recording the dry signal directly from my RPQ preamp.

Digital latency may only be a few milliseconds but a few milliseconds delay is enough to kill a time groove. It can also cause comb filtering. Direct hardware monitoring is the only way to completely get rid of the digital latency delay.

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by Al Acuff

I've been down this digital latency road you're on and here is what worked best for me in the end: Direct hardware monitoring.

You'll need a microphone preamp with dual outputs. Typically these will be XLR and 1/4" jacks. Send the XLR output to line level inputs on your interface and send the other 1/4" output to a small mixer. Use the mixer's headphone jack for monitoring directly from your mic preamps. No latency!

Is this any different from the "direct monitoring" mode that some interfaces have built-in?

[Al Acuff]

Originally Posted by Chipotle

Is this any different from the "direct monitoring" mode that some interfaces have built-in?

I can only speak to the interfaces I know which are an Apogee Quartet and Duet. They offer low latency monitoring through the interface. It's an improvement in roundtrip time compared with monitoring through your DAW but there is still digital latency due to the A to D and D to A conversions.

So to answer your question yes there is a difference. It's the difference between low latency and zero latency monitoring.

[varmonter]

Im pretty simple but my focusrite
2i2 interface has direct monitoring.
With ableton live 10 as my daw. I dont
notice any latentency.. ..
.

[paulp1960]

I'm pretty sure the cheapest interfaces which allow you to mix the direct input with the output do so in the analog domain with a simple analog mixer circuit.
Not so good if you want to give your singer some reverb in their headphones.
But it might solve my acoustic guitar problem since I'm only wanting to hear a dry guitar signal via the mic.

A more expensive interface like my RME Babyface with some built-in dsp can create a mixing matrix (Total Mix application) within the interface itself.
But now we have some latency due the AD and DA conversions involved.
This is still less than going "through" the DAW software. I can't remember how low RME claim this latency is, I seem to remember a figure between 1 and 3 ms. Interestingly if you choose to run a reverb effect in Total Mix for monitoring purposes it does use the host CPU, not the DSP onboard the Babyface.

The solution posted by Al Acuff (separate mic pre and analog mixer) is a sound one and that's where I will probably end up. Thanks to all who replied.