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Old 11-13-2019, 12:39 PM
DesertTwang DesertTwang is offline
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Default Schatten HFN Pickup Success Story

Following up on a previous post on my first experience with the Schatten HFN passive soundboard transducer pickup, which was not positive, I'm sharing this update in case others wishing to install this pickup may find it useful.

Quick recap: Installed the pickup in my Martin 000-15sm using the tape install method. The result was awful; lots of piezo quack and artificial sound. Suspecting a bad install, I re-checked and found that all feet of the pickup were solidly stuck to the bridge plate, so that could not be reason for the bad sound.

Putty install dramatically improved sound over tape install
I then removed the pickup and did the putty install instead of using the tape, with stunning results. Playing the guitar through a RedEye preamp into a Fender Acoustasonic amp, it sounds fantastic. I can honestly not tell where the natural, acoustic sound coming from the guitar ends and the amplified sound begins, because the two blend so seamlessly. At first, I thought the signal was weak and I had to crank up the amp's volume to really hear the amplified sound, as I believed I was hearing mostly the acoustic sound coming from the guitar directly. But when I turned the volume all the way down, I realized the amplified sound had been there all along, except it it didn't stand out because both the guitar and the amp sounded so natural together. There is plenty of bass presence, too.

How does it compare to the K&K?
So unless something changes, I think I'm really going to like this pickup. I have not done a direct A/B comparison, but based on recent memory playing a friend's 000-15sm with a K&K pickup through the same amplification system, I much prefer the HFN. In fact, I was about to get the K&K since I had it in a previous guitar and liked it enough to do the same for my 000-15sm, but auditioning my friend's 000-15sm didn't leave me fully convinced the K&K would be the right choice. The Schatten to me sounds much more balanced across the tonal spectrum than the K&K, and generally clearer and crisper for lack of better terms. I always found the K&K to be workable, but never really great-sounding. The Schatten appears to have the upper hand in the "my guitar only louder" category. I should add that it sounds really good even without the preamp in the chain.

DYI install
I'm especially thrilled about being able to do the install all by myself as opposed to paying a guitar tech like I did with my K&K. The only thing I could not do myself was drilling the endpin jack hole, but my local guitar shop did it for free. (Shoutout to Rainbow Guitars in Tucson!). I ended up paying nothing for this install.

I would like to thank all those who provided advice on the install procedure, which made things really easy. The process took me about 2 hours the first time around. Most of that time was spent on reading instructions, making a jig to guide the pickup in place and rehearsing the install process so as to not mess anything up.

The second time around, when I removed the tape and installed the pickup using the putty provided, the whole process took literally 10 minutes.

Make a jig -- it's worth the effort
I like to think that I may have found a modification of the process that makes the install even more fool-proof: Instead of glueing the pickup to one side of the jig with double-sided tape, I decided to cut out a slot to accommodate the pickup and hold it in the exact desired position. This allowed me to insert the pickup into the jig to where it's almost flush with the surface of the jig. This has two benefits: I can maneuver the jig into a much more precise place without risking the putty (or tape) on the pickup making premature contact with the bridge plate, and the pickup is held in place mostly by the slot it sits in. Therefore, only very little masking tape is necessary to hold the pickup securely to the jig, making it much easier to separate the jig from the pickup once installation is complete.

My installation procedure, step by step
First, I made a stencil for the jig: I cut out a piece of stiff, transparent plastic (from a blueberry container) and transferred the locations of the low and high E bridge pin holes, as well as the outline of the saddle onto the plastic.

Next, I laid the stencil on top of a thin piece of plywood that would become the jig and secured it with masking tape. I transferred the marked locations by drilling two holes into the jig at the locations of the two bridge pin holes. Then I used a jigsaw to cut out a slot around the saddle outline, just wide enough and long enough to accommodate the pickup. This also makes it possible to position the pickup exactly underneath the saddle line.

Once the jig was finished, I removed the stencil as it was no longer needed. I inserted the pickup into the slot in the jig and secured it with masking tape, making sure that the pickup was recessed as much as possible in the slot. In other words, its feet should protrude only a little bit beyond the surface of the jig. This is key as it allows you to maneuver the jig very close to the bridge plate without the pickup making premature contact with the bridge plate.

Next, I maneuvered the jig with the pickup inserted into the sound hole. Make sure that the cable is not threaded through the slot in the jig, as that would prevent removing the jig later!

Moving the jig into the final position becomes much easier if you have access to a bright, focused light (I used an Ikea desk lamp with a long, bendable neck). You want the light to shine vertically down through the bridge pin holes into the body of the guitar. If you get the angle right, you can see the markings on the jig as you blindly maneuver it underneath the bridge plate. When you see the holes in the jig line up underneath the bridge pin holes, insert two golf tees into the holes and slide the jig onto them from underneath. I recommend practicing this step a few times without tape or putty applied to the pickup.

Once you feel comfortable moving the jig and pickup into the desired location, apply the tape or putty and go for the final install. Once positioned correctly, press the jig all the way against the bridge plate and apply counter-pressure on the top of the bridge. Press the pickup firmly into place for a minute or so.

Carefully remove the masking tape securing the pickup to the jig and slide the jig away from the pickup.

Rather than using the supplied plastic clamps to secure the cable inside the guitar, which I found clunky and ugly, I used a strip of adhesive-backed velcro, wrapped around the cable and folded back onto itself, and a corresponding strip of velcro with adhesive backing and attached it to one of the back braces inside the guitar body.

That's it! You're done.


Making the stencil for the jig: Mark locations of low and high E bridge pins and outline of the saddle with a sharpie.


Transferring the stencil markings to the jig, then cutting out saddle slot and bridge pin holes allows for precise positioning of the pickup. Ignore the poor line-up between stencil and jig; as you can tell, I staged this photo after I had already completed the preparation of the jig, when I realized it would be helpful for documenting the procedure.



The pickup inserted into the slot in the jig, secured with masking tape. Double-check the routing of the cable to ensure you'll be able to remove the jig after the install!



Flipped view of the jig with pickup inserted, ready to accept the putty or tape. Note how the feet are almost flush with the jig. This allows you to move the pickup very close to its final location without it making premature contact.



Pickup installed in final position using putty.



Velcro attachment for the cable inside the guitar.
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Last edited by DesertTwang; 11-13-2019 at 01:54 PM.
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Old 11-13-2019, 02:36 PM
Gordon Currie Gordon Currie is offline
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Congratulations on a successful reinstall!

I personally prefer the HFN to the K+K as it seems to need little EQ, whereas I consistently needed to pull out midrange with the K+K.

One huge advantage of the K+K - currently - is that installs seem to be pretty consistent. Maybe that is partly because it's the most popular SBT.

The HFN seems to have a lot of little unknown issues affecting the install (that are slowly becoming uncovered as more people try it), but of course it is far easier to remove and reinstall.

Thanks for the post as it just adds more knowledge for all of us.
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Old 11-13-2019, 03:13 PM
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Mbroady Mbroady is offline
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Thanks for the detailed update. as Gordon C mentions I have first hand experience with those "little unknown issues". I installed the HFN with tape and
experienced a lack of volume and depth on the low end So I'm going make the switch from tape to putty.

The question I have is how hard was it to remove the HFN from the soundboard with the tape install. It was installed using C clamps using an adequate amount of pressure and was clamped overnight. Should I expect a little resistance which I need to be gentle with or should it peel right off
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Old 11-13-2019, 05:05 PM
DesertTwang DesertTwang is offline
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The tape isn't all too strong. I had no issues removing the pickup. My main concern was the tape staying behind on the bridge plate, so I proceeded very carefully. In the end, it was really easy. Grab the pickup firmly and gently rock it back and forth. Try to get a feel for whether the tape is going to detach from the pickup (undesired), as opposed to the bridge plate (desired), and adjust your movement accordingly. I did not have to use a lot of force to get the pickup and the tape off cleanly, within a matter of a minute or so and no tools required.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbroady View Post
Thanks for the detailed update. as Gordon C mentions I have first hand experience with those "little unknown issues". I installed the HFN with tape and
experienced a lack of volume and depth on the low end So I'm going make the switch from tape to putty.

The question I have is how hard was it to remove the HFN from the soundboard with the tape install. It was installed using C clamps using an adequate amount of pressure and was clamped overnight. Should I expect a little resistance which I need to be gentle with or should it peel right off
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Martin America 1
Martin 000-15sm
Recording King Dirty 30s RPS-9 TS
Taylor GS Mini
Baton Rouge 12-string guitar
Martin L1XR Little Martin
1933 Epiphone Olympic
1971 square neck Dobro

Last edited by DesertTwang; 11-13-2019 at 05:11 PM.
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Old 11-13-2019, 05:40 PM
steelvibe steelvibe is offline
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They ought to pay you for figuring out the proper install. They could refine it and add it to the kit.

Great work!
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Old 11-15-2019, 09:45 AM
GuitarLuva GuitarLuva is offline
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Glad you got it all worked out. It's hard to say for sure what the issues are that people have with a tape install. All I know for sure is that I had one bad install with tape and never had one issue yet with a putty install (knock on wood). Hence, why I recommend the putty. I don't use a homemade jig with a putty install either so that's one less step.
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Old 11-15-2019, 10:09 AM
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Mbroady Mbroady is offline
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From the above pictures it looks like a good amount of putty should be used. is much lremoved after pressure is applied and the putty is spread out
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Old 11-15-2019, 12:22 PM
GuitarLuva GuitarLuva is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbroady View Post
From the above pictures it looks like a good amount of putty should be used. is much lremoved after pressure is applied and the putty is spread out
I don't use very much to be honest. I just make a small ball (around the size of a BB) and place that on each foot and put the pickup in place. When I have the position right, apply upward pressure and leave as is.
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Old 11-15-2019, 01:05 PM
Birdbrain Birdbrain is offline
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Default What kind of putty?

I bought my HFN used here, and no putty was included.
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Old 11-15-2019, 01:57 PM
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Mbroady Mbroady is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdbrain View Post
I bought my HFN used here, and no putty was included.
You can email Les at Schatten and they will send you the putty. They did for me.
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Old 11-29-2019, 07:34 AM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Wasn't sure where to post this but it's the most recent Schatten thread. Anyway, I can't remember which member it was but there's a good K&K vs. HFN (with tape and then putty) comparison video on YouTube. I was listening a bunch last night on good headphones as there seems to be a lot of debate lately about which one sounds good.

What I found is that initially the HFN does sound quite a bit more mic-like. I can see why people like it. I think the big thing is though that there's a compromise here. With the K&K, which is glued directly to the bridge plate, you get a bit less clarity but that you can easily eq in. What you do get is a hotter output, more low end and I feel even more mid range, which can again be dialed out. My feeling is that since the HFN is elevated off the bridge plate (the actual transducer part), you get a little less of that piezo tone and more of a mic-like quality. However, the low end is quite a bit less. This is not a bad thing, I just don't think the HFN can have produce the type of low end that the K&K can. I have always found it more difficult to dial in more low end than to dial in more high end so if I had the choice, I feel the K&K would still win out for me.
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Old 11-29-2019, 10:05 AM
jonfields45 jonfields45 is offline
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I like my HFNs a bit better than a K&K but I've had plenty of K&Ks over the years and I think they are both good choices. A basic EQ pedal or ToneDexter doesn't hurt if you are particular about your tone with either of them.

I'm keeping these EQ pedals in my guitar cases lately for that unexpected opportunity to plug in. Maybe not audiophile bliss but cheap and effective.

https://smile.amazon.com/Guitar-Anal...t_sims?ie=UTF8

However, I really hate puting Cyanoacrylate in my guitars.

In particular, my RainSongs have a woven CF surface on the insides which would make the classic razor blade removal of a K&K not feasible. And sooner or later everything breaks or becomes obsolete.
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Old 11-29-2019, 11:29 AM
stevecuss stevecuss is offline
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My take:

HFN is higher fidelity than K&K and reveals more of each guitar's personality.

K&K has a much hotter output.

I personally have gone to the least invasive pickup options, so that is HFN or Trance for me, but K&K and others make fantastic pickups.
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Old 11-29-2019, 12:07 PM
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Congrats DesertTwang!

Any chance we can get a recording of the pickup? Would love to hear how it sounds
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Old 11-29-2019, 01:40 PM
bobbyg67 bobbyg67 is offline
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yes i have noticed the k&k has a very substantial hotter output than the hfn.
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