The Retro is now meaningless...

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Groberts

the new reimagined 2018 HD-28 is out already? The one with 1 3/4” nut, Tort PG, Butterbean open back tuning gears? Man, where did you find that? Thats the ONE I want to try the most lately.

Gary,

It’s actually the "Retro" model, which is identical except that it gets Aura images from the Martin museum pieces. This model was very popular. And, I’m told, Martin decided to "reimagine" the HD-28 by putting the Retro out as the new HD-28. It’s an excellent guitar. You’re going to love it.

[Groberts]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

Gary,

It’s actually the "Retro" model, which is identical except that it gets Aura images from the Martin museum pieces. This model was very popular. And, I’m told, Martin decided to "reimagine" the HD-28 by putting the Retro out as the new HD-28. It’s an excellent guitar. You’re going to love it.

Thanks Dave. Is the Fishman VT enhance the PU in this one? I believe that is the only option in the 2018 Retro’s going forward. Just checking.

Does your HD-28 have the forward shifted Scalloped bracing? (Maybe they all do, but I thought the forward shifted braces came from the HD-28V.. Then again I could be confused)

Regardless of bracing, does the Fishman VT Enhance PU sound full and natural?

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Groberts

Thanks Dave. Is the Fishman VT enhance the PU in this one? I believe that is the only option in the 2018 Retro’s going forward. Just checking.



Does your HD-28 have the forward shifted Scalloped bracing? (Maybe they all do, but I thought the forward shifted braces came from the HD-28V.. Then again I could be confused)



Regardless of bracing, does the Fishman VT Enhance PU sound full and natural?

Gary,

The new HD-28 is the same exact build as the previous HD-28E Retro. Both guitars feature forward shifted bracing and the same neck and appointments. That was what led me to believe they would eventually discontinue the standard HD-28 and replace it with the Retro build. They went a step further and did the whole standard line. :-)

The Fishman Aura VT Enhance is the same pickup as the other models. However, the image they preload is from a Martin Museum guitar recorded with a vintage microphone. The result is slightly more convincing than the standard pickup images. The new VT preloaded settings remind me of the “Easy” mode 2 in he original Retro Aura F1+, with (perhaps) a little more image. In fact, I would be surprised if it was anything else. Factor in the Enhance sensor, and you get a pretty convincing sound with a bit of control.

So, while I preferred the old system where I could make my own selections, I think they likely chose the image many of us would use anyway. Furthermore, there are no holes in the guitar.

I could justify my purchase by saying that, in the future, nothing would technically prevent me from totally removing the entire system and installing something new. That said, there is currently NO after market (on board) system available that is more convincing. Only the F1+, which they unfortunately discontinued.

Fortunately, I think I got a good one. Evidently, some kind souls at Martin sent my dealer a unit that had a huge bass presence and volume like I had asked for. That doesn’t happen very often, so I consider myself fortunate. And, I will humbly play my new guitar with the knowledge that there isn’t a better gig guitar for ME on the market.

Keep rocking Retro Dudes!

[BluesKing777]

Ah, I’m a dope - when I looked at the Martin site before answering in a previous post, I saw the Retro Series still had a place in the guitar list but I didn’t notice the guitars in the pics had no knobs! (Except for the D45e Retro which you can still see the knobs currently - they may have forgotten to change the pic as we write.)

So I wrongly assumed the Retro series would continue as is, while the new models would also be made...but no, they are gone. OK.

I was watching a vid with Tommy Emmanuel talkng about his stage gear and he said he wants ONE great sound, not lots of sounds, so I suppose this applies to the new system. One Aura image isn’t going to be much fun or even anything to talk about. and the soundhole plugs won’t fit!

And my D18e Retro has 3 ribbon mic images! And they use the first one as number 1 sound in Easy Mode, which I could run with if that was all I had...but what happened to Free Speech? And the images in Easy Mode sound good in an amp, but have too much QUACK for direct recording - I bump up the image percentage (in Performance Mode), but in the new system? Out of luck?

I have the Tonedexter coming soon, so I will make as many TD images as I want! And I may even mix the TD with my D18e Retro, Mr Martin!


BluesKing777.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by BluesKing777

Ah, I’m a dope - when I looked at the Martin site before answering in a previous post, I saw the Retro Series still had a place in the guitar list but I didn’t notice the guitars in the pics had no knobs! (Except for the D45e Retro which you can still see the knobs currently - they may have forgotten to change the pic as we write.)

So I wrongly assumed the Retro series would continue as is, while the new models would also be made...but no, they are gone. OK.

I was watching a vid with Tommy Emmanuel talkng about his stage gear and he said he wants ONE great sound, not lots of sounds, so I suppose this applies to the new system. One Aura image isn’t going to be much fun or even anything to talk about. and the soundhole plugs won’t fit!

And my D18e Retro has 3 ribbon mic images! And they use the first one as number 1 sound in Easy Mode, which I could run with if that was all I had...but what happened to Free Speech? And the images in Easy Mode sound good in an amp, but have too much QUACK for direct recording - I bump up the image percentage (in Performance Mode), but in the new system? Out of luck?

I have the Tonedexter coming soon, so I will make as many TD images as I want! And I may even mix the TD with my D18e Retro, Mr Martin!


BluesKing777.

You’re right about the new system. It won’t be as useful for direct recording. Out of the speakers it seems to sound quite nice. But people wanted fewer holes and less options. Go figure.

[BluesKing777]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

You’re right about the new system. It won’t be as useful for direct recording. Out of the speakers it seems to sound quite nice. But people wanted fewer holes and less options. Go figure.

Ha!

So the new owners will say they plugged in, liked it, or didn’t like it and that’s it? Surely there is something adjustable to ask about? Whole forums could vanish!

I just double checked, zip, but I was hoping Neumann would come out with their high quality version of the iRig Stage thingy I have, too flimsy and not the quality sound but a great idea for guitars that you ‘want fewer holes’ or even none. But I have tortured the the thing and it isn’t quite there. But a Neumann version with a nice black box with lots of stuff to fiddle with, well....that is close to acoustika nirvana, eh?

BluesKing777.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by BluesKing777

Ha!

So the new owners will say they plugged in, liked it, or didn’t like it and that’s it? Surely there is something adjustable to ask about? Whole forums could vanish!

I just double checked, zip, but I was hoping Neumann would come out with their high quality version of the iRig Stage thingy I have, too flimsy and not the quality sound but a great idea for guitars that you ‘want fewer holes’ or even none. But I have tortured the the thing and it isn’t quite there. But a Neumann version with a nice black box with lots of stuff to fiddle with, well....that is close to acoustika nirvana, eh?

BluesKing777.

Agreed! Regarding the new Aura, they include a bridge plate sensor that acts as a mic of sorts. You can blend that in with the signal. And the Aura side has a tone wheel that goes from flat to very scooped with extra bass and highs. So, there’s something to dial and play with. Truth be told, it’s plenty good for live playing and 10x better than anything any of us had 20 years ago.

BTW, I really did your music.

[BluesKing777]

Thanks Dave...

I hear you about the current joyous equipment possibilities! 240 years ago, it seems, I played a blues solo spot in my electric band break, live with the Dobro in the track above with a rubbish Ibanez mic. And you know what? It sounded good......OUT THE FRONT. Or so people told me. Where I sat, I could not hear anything but the back of a PA rumbling along or dreadful feddback if they gave me floor monitors. With all that sound level going forward, and that is the big shock of playing live in a PA - the incredible level they put out to reach the back of the room.

So I asked at the music shop what to do and they sold me the latest greatest......gulp......Barcus Berry stick on reso pickup! And through my electric guitar amp, I can say without doubt, it was the worst I have ever sounded! So I had that turned right down but audible for my monitor and had a beautiful Shure SM57 that I stole from our sax player pumping it out to the front. From where I sat while playing, it sounded like I was in a tunnel. And it would be no different if I went to the same bar with same PA this very night! Screach! BUT, I have the tech! My joyous Boss VE8 with all my settings glued down, plug straight to a desk...in stereo....Hi Fi, baby! Budget Maton guitar with a great dual source pickup! Who knew this would be?

Except now I am too old and silly.

BluesKing777.

[BluesKing777]

I meant to post this list of Aura images in all the Retro models for comparison - if there is any rhyme or reason, I can't see it. ie. some has 3 ribbon mic images, some one....

List courtesy of Spoon Phillips:

http://onemanz.com/guitar/reviews/ac...s-aura-images/


BluesKing777.

[noledog]

Dave, Gary,

* The HD-28e Retro was the initial guitar in the Retro series that got me started on this journey from my beloved MIJ TAKS to Martin Retros back in early 2014 when I first demo'd one with the F1 AURA PLUS.

** I loved this particular guitar acoustically, unplugged and the vintage appointments yet with the new then, mlo/pa neck. But, I wasn't convinced it could out perform my MIJ Taks... I demo'd that same guitar for 3 months, learning the pickup and playing it thru my rig. When I went back to pull the trigger having loved the F1AP & all, my sales buddy pulled out a killer newly voiced standard D18 for me to audition and BAM! I bought it on the spot leaving behind a very nice HD-28e Retro, without regret because I love this iconic D-18 that I left unaltered sans the M80 and Colossi custom bone pins.

*** Still, the HD-28e Retro with F1AP is a great guitar model, I don't think I would like it tho with the VTAE, at least plugged in, as much...not a fan of that big ol sbt on the bridge plate AND a ust AND a tusq saddle, but I've been pleasantly surprised before!

**** The F1AP should still be offered as an option, OR, modify the VTAE without the sbt, add one ribbon mic image, use the ENHANCE wheel as an image blend wheel instead, and the volume and tone as it currently exists...that I would buy!

eric

[Groberts]

Originally Posted by noledog

Dave, Gary,

* The HD-28e Retro was the initial guitar in the Retro series that got me started on this journey from my beloved MIJ TAKS to Martin Retros back in early 2014 when I first demo'd one with the F1 AURA PLUS.

** I loved this particular guitar acoustically, unplugged and the vintage appointments yet with the new then, mlo/pa neck. But, I wasn't convinced it could out perform my MIJ Taks... I demo'd that same guitar for 3 months, learning the pickup and playing it thru my rig. When I went back to pull the trigger having loved the F1AP & all, my sales buddy pulled out a killer newly voiced standard D18 for me to audition and BAM! I bought it on the spot leaving behind a very nice HD-28e Retro, without regret because I love this iconic D-18 that I left unaltered sans the M80 and Colossi custom bone pins.

*** Still, the HD-28e Retro with F1AP is a great guitar model, I don't think I would like it tho with the VTAE, at least plugged in, as much...not a fan of that big ol sbt on the bridge plate AND a ust AND a tusq saddle, but I've been pleasantly surprised before!

**** The F1AP should still be offered as an option, OR, modify the VTAE without the sbt, add one ribbon mic image, use the ENHANCE wheel as an image blend wheel instead, and the volume and tone as it currently exists...that I would buy!

eric

Eric, I think you may still be unfairly judging the Fishman Aura VT enhance based on a Martin model that wasn’t your sound either. Just for for thought.

[noledog]

Originally Posted by Groberts

Eric, I think you may still be unfairly judging the Fishman Aura VT enhance based on a Martin model that wasn’t your sound either. Just for for thought.

* I respectfully disagree my broham from this point if I may explain my thought process and experience in auditioning these 2 systems for MY applications.

** I tried the VTAE extensively several times back and forth on a OMC-35e vs the F1AP on the 000-18e Retro and HD-28e Retro (and even the VTME on the DC-15me) thru my rig over several visits to same store, same guitars...while I admittedly favor the 18 style woods, I was basically just listening to what the characteristics of the pickup itself did to the tone of the amplified sound thru the various adjustments to the V, T, & E controls regardless of the woods and my preferences and I did not like it as much as the F1AP capabilities...and I happen to like 35's.

*** Remember now they both have the Matrix ust and when the F1AP is on the Matrix alone, which is Easy Mode setting P, it sounds terrible no matter what wood combo or body and no matter how much you eq it from within the F1 itself, (aside from the images), and running directly into my amp. The VTAE actually sounds a little better with Matrix at 100% because it has some non-adjustable Aura image blend fixed into it. HOWEVER, once you dial in at least 50% image on the F1, particularly one of the ribbon mic images, it adds much more dramatic changes to the characteristics of the sound in an appealing way as compared to what the sbt does when you dial the enhance wheel in. It is therein I made my evaluation/judgement and found myself heavily favouring the F1AP over the VTAE for my applications.

**** You sound good bro on your OMC-18e VTAE, and it works for you; very nice guitar unplugged as well. But even you have told me on several occasions that you find yourself using very little of what the sbt enhance offers in the shaping of your tone and I think your Plat-Pro makes up for it nicely in bringing out the best in that guitar and your style of cross picking plugged in to your Bose...tho I think your Anthem is dialed in perfect on your fiddle-back and OM1A and they sound warmer and fatter when I listen to your videos. If you get the DC-18e, wouldn't you prefer the Anthem over the VTAE if they offered it?

Cheers!

eric

[Groberts]

Originally Posted by noledog

* I respectfully disagree my broham from this point if I may explain my thought process and experience in auditioning these 2 systems for MY applications.

** I tried the VTAE extensively several times back and forth on a OMC-35e vs the F1AP on the 000-18e Retro and HD-28e Retro (and even the VTME on the DC-15me) thru my rig over several visits to same store, same guitars...while I admittedly favor the 18 style woods, I was basically just listening to what the characteristics of the pickup itself did to the tone of the amplified sound thru the various adjustments to the V, T, & E controls regardless of the woods and my preferences and I did not like it as much as the F1AP capabilities...and I happen to like 35's.

*** Remember now they both have the Matrix ust and when the F1AP is on the Matrix alone, which is Easy Mode setting P, it sounds terrible no matter what wood combo or body and no matter how much you eq it from within the F1 itself, (aside from the images), and running directly into my amp. The VTAE actually sounds a little better with Matrix at 100% because it has some non-adjustable Aura image blend fixed into it. HOWEVER, once you dial in at least 50% image on the F1, particularly one of the ribbon mic images, it adds much more dramatic changes to the characteristics of the sound in an appealing way as compared to what the sbt does when you dial the enhance wheel in. It is therein I made my evaluation/judgement and found myself heavily favouring the F1AP over the VTAE for my applications.

**** You sound good bro on your OMC-18e VTAE, and it works for you; very nice guitar unplugged as well. But even you have told me on several occasions that you find yourself using very little of what the sbt enhance offers in the shaping of your tone and I think your Plat-Pro makes up for it nicely in bringing out the best in that guitar and your style of cross picking plugged in to your Bose...tho I think your Anthem is dialed in perfect on your fiddle-back and OM1A and they sound warmer and fatter when I listen to your videos. If you get the DC-18e, wouldn't you prefer the Anthem over the VTAE if they offered it?

Cheers!

eric

Points well taken my friend.

1. I agree the enhance knob is not a sound I am using and it doesn't really sound that great to me ..with 'any' enhance thumbwheel dialed in.
2. The Aura Image is baked-in regardless of the enhance SBT feature. whether they chose what I would want as a favorite I'll never know.
3. My main issue with the Aura VTE PU is the B and E treble strings sound a bit thinner and have a little less 'meat/texture' than the other strings.
4. Did not remember you did more A-B with the Aura VTE versus F1 Aura when you bought the 000-18e Retro.
5. yes I do use the Fishman Platinum Pro EQ Preamp on my pedal board and I do a fair amount of sonic/tonal shaping to get what I want. It works great. If I was usiing a Loudbox or other acoustic amp with EQ in the preamp, I would likely do some tone shaping there. But since I am using a Bose L1 Compact, I need the preamp on my board to tweak and optimize. It works fine.
6. All acoustic pick ups exhibit some level of compromise in one way or the other.
7/ The Aura VTE is useable, workable but doesn't offer the flexibility your F1 Aura + offers. Fair enough.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Groberts

Points well taken my friend.



1. I agree the enhance knob is not a sound I am using and it doesn't really sound that great to me ..with 'any' enhance thumbwheel dialed in.

2. The Aura Image is baked-in regardless of the enhance SBT feature. whether they chose what I would want as a favorite I'll never know.

3. My main issue with the Aura VTE PU is the B and E treble strings sound a bit thinner and have a little less 'meat/texture' than the other strings.

4. Did not remember you did more A-B with the Aura VTE versus F1 Aura when you bought the 000-18e Retro.

5. yes I do use the Fishman Platinum Pro EQ Preamp on my pedal board and I do a fair amount of sonic/tonal shaping to get what I want. It works great. If I was usiing a Loudbox or other acoustic amp with EQ in the preamp, I would likely do some tone shaping there. But since I am using a Bose L1 Compact, I need the preamp on my board to tweak and optimize. It works fine.

6. All acoustic pick ups exhibit some level of compromise in one way or the other.

7/ The Aura VTE is useable, workable but doesn't offer the flexibility your F1 Aura + offers. Fair enough.

Gary,

Regarding the e and b, you should remove the strings, remove the saddle, reach in and pop the Matrix up from the inside wire carefully, and then re-seat everything. Also check and clean the bottom of the saddle. If there is dust, or an uneven surface it will make the plain strings quieter. I don’t have this issue with my AVTE pickup.

Having owned a few F1+ systems, I agree with point 7. The AVTE is not the same. But, it “works.” It’s not exciting. It’s not great for direct recording. It will probably be improved by Fishman in the next go around. But, it sounds better than most available systems (F1, Cooltube, and Cole Clark excepted.)

In my case, I waited too long. The guitar I bought with the F1+ was not my favorite, but I had limited options. That guitar was about an 7.5/10 acoustically and the pickup was a 9/10.

By the time I moved on from that guitar, the F1+ was discontinued. I searched and begged Martin and got nowhere. I ordered a guitar from one of our sponsors that looked great on paper. That one ended up being another 7.5/10 acoustically (don’t order guitars online, ugh) and installed a K&K pickup that was about a 7/10.

So, my dealer got a couple new HD-28E Retros with the AVTE system for me to try. One was OK, like my last Retro. The second one was a real hit acoustically. I was very excited about it. So, I plugged it in at the store and dialed it in for about 30 min. When I left I felt like the guitar was a 9/10 acoustically and the pickup was about an 8/10.

I’m not sure if the new system is lighter, or if it’s purely chance. So, my advice on the topic is: Pick your poison. :-)

[AeroUSA]

Guys I don’t like the new system at all. My choice would be one of the new standard series models with the new matrix infinity pickup and the fishman aura Spectrum pedal (or tone dexter). For me this gives the best of both.