VOICING vs Tone... as I consider string selection

[vindibona1]

I wish I could post recordings but the mics are put away as we're doing some messy remodeling. But I had another mini-epiphany last night. VOICING...as opposed to "tone".

After replacing the saddle on my Taylor 814ceDLX I came full circle back to Elixir nano strings as was provided by Taylor. I was pretty happy, but a couple weeks ago I'd replaced them and for whatever reason in the moment they weren't doing it for me. My 614ce also strung with Elixirs was past due for a string change as the coating was getting "fuzzy". I have a gig on Friday and have to choose which one I'll play. So I thought to change both guitars and then decide.

The 614 after it opened up with Tonerite and had a bone saddle installed has been sounding glorious. I was leaning toward gigging that guitar on Friday, so fresh Elixirs went on. The 814... it was time to experiment and for $6.50 I thought to once again try DR Sunbeams, strings I hadn't tried since before it's unbleached bone saddle and Tonerite treatment. It was took weeks ago that I tried Straight Up Strings on the 814... and hated them on this guitar.

WHAT I HEARD...
The 814ceDLX/Sunbeam combination was a surprise. Being a CE/DLX model with Adi bracing it always sounded more articulate than the regular 814ce- and perhaps a bit "stiff" sounding. The Sunbeams really warmed up the sound, to the extent that it the full harmonic range was there, but it wasn't "bright" in as much as you had the upper B and E strings in your face, which I think is what a lot of folks object to with Taylors. It was the voicing more than the tone that seemed to make the difference. I don't think you can change the tone of a guitar- but you can change the voicing (which is also what the bridge pin thing is about).

So now with both guitars with fresh strings, as I played the 614 right after the 814 I could more distinctly hear the middle strings. Still balanced, and with a little more prominence in the upper strings than the 814 with the Sunbeams.

So why didn't I like the SUS strings on the 814???? The TONE was fine... but I didn't like the VOICING. What I heard was a very prominent, perhaps dominating D string that I'd not heard with other strings sets, before or after. That imbalance I found so disturbing that I couldn't appreciate the tone. Just the over-dominance of that lone D string was such that it drew attention from everything else going on. It surprised me a lot. I certainly didn't hear that when I was testing Santa Cruz strings on the 814.

Bottom line: I had failed to note a distinction between TONE and VOICING. Voicing may contribute to the perception of tone, but they are distinctly different. I guess the easy way to think about it is to think of voicing as the balance from string to string, keeping in mind that the balance and strength of certain strings will have a major impact on sympathetic vibrations/harmonics, and thus change the perception of tone.

Sorry to be so lengthy, but I wanted to throw that out there as we don't really discuss string selection and guitars beyond "tone". Thanks for taking time to read this (if you've gotten this far ). [If I can clean up enough I'll put a mic out and try to put down some quick tone samples.]

[jaymarsch]

Interesting, vb1. What may get confusing with terminology is that luthiers refer to "voicing" an instrument which is different than how you are using the term here. As usual, discussing sound is very challenging and subjective but if you discern these things for yourself to help dial in exactly what you are trying to achieve then I can see how it can be helpful. I own some incredibly balanced guitars so have not experimented exactly how you describe. I will look forward to the discussion that will follow here.

Best,
Jayne

[zmf]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

Bottom line: I had failed to note a distinction between TONE and VOICING. Voicing may contribute to the perception of tone, but they are distinctly different. I guess the easy way to think about it is to think of voicing as the balance from string to string, keeping in mind that the balance and strength of certain strings will have a major impact on sympathetic vibrations/harmonics, and thus change the perception of tone.

Sounds interesting, but can't quite grasp the distinction. What is the difference between "tone" and "the perception of tone"?

As you say, tone is, in part, the interaction of the notes on a given guitar. You're saying different brands of strings result in different vibration amplitudes, and change the tone?

So again, how do "tone" and "perception of tone" differ?

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by jaymarsch

Interesting, vb1. What may get confusing with terminology is that luthiers refer to "voicing" an instrument which is different than how you are using the term here. As usual, discussing sound is very challenging and subjective but if you discern these things for yourself to help dial in exactly what you are trying to achieve then I can see how it can be helpful. I own some incredibly balanced guitars so have not experimented exactly how you describe. I will look forward to the discussion that will follow here.

Best,
Jayne

Of course you're right Jayne. I have to think of a way to demonstrate what I'm hearing and perhaps do a demo vid like Andy (Silly Moustache ) does. But I'll never top his voice with his English accent (which is so cool).

As an addendum, I have my Alvarez Yairi out now as well as my two Taylors and was marveling at how great it sounds. I'd changed the strings weeks ago and wish I could remember (or noted) what I strung it with. Anyway, as I try to figure out why it's sounding better than I remember, I was looked at the bridge pins and realized that a) I had changed them to Ebony... and B) The D string has an African Blackwood pin, while the others are ebony. I must have heard too strong a D string and used the Blackwood to mitigate the excess. A perfect illustration of what I'm trying to say. Balance, voicing, whatever you want to call it.

What also goes largely undiscussed is the inter-dependence of the the strings as it applies to harmonics and overtones. What I hadn't thought much about is how a dominant middle string might change or even block or enhance sympathetic vibrations, changing the sound and the perception of tone or voicing.

Of course this is all fine tuning an nuance, of which most players have no interest. I guess I'm a little nuts about it as I've been trained to not only (exactly) match pitch within an instrument section but timbre and gesture as well- which is why I have such a high sensitivity to this stuff.

[Martie]

Very interesting post. I started the thread below last week, which didn't get much response (I can go on a bit!), but seems to be along similar lines to yours. I guess that, with experience, you not only get a feel for what you want each string to do individually, but also how you want them to work together - a lot like a six channel recorder, where each channel/string is distinct and important and the mix (as distinct from the colours/tone etc.) is the sum of the individual strings and how they are balanced etc. I guess you could argue that mix + tone = voice...?

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...wtone+heritage

[bufflehead]

I'm not seeing a difference here between what you're calling "voicing" and what I call "balance." I've read this sentence over a few times, and it seems to muddy the waters: "I guess the easy way to think about it is to think of voicing as the balance from string to string, keeping in mind that the balance and strength of certain strings will have a major impact on sympathetic vibrations/harmonics, and thus change the perception of tone."

Can you clarify how you see "voicing" being discrete from balance?

[jaymarsch]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

Of course you're right Jayne. I have to think of a way to demonstrate what I'm hearing and perhaps do a demo vid like Andy (Silly Moustache ) does. But I'll never top his voice with his English accent (which is so cool).

As an addendum, I have my Alvarez Yairi out now as well as my two Taylors and was marveling at how great it sounds. I'd changed the strings weeks ago and wish I could remember (or noted) what I strung it with. Anyway, as I try to figure out why it's sounding better than I remember, I was looked at the bridge pins and realized that a) I had changed them to Ebony... and B) The D string has an African Blackwood pin, while the others are ebony. I must have heard too strong a D string and used the Blackwood to mitigate the excess. A perfect illustration of what I'm trying to say. Balance, voicing, whatever you want to call it.

What also goes largely undiscussed is the inter-dependence of the the strings as it applies to harmonics and overtones. What I hadn't thought much about is how a dominant middle string might change or even block or enhance sympathetic vibrations, changing the sound and the perception of tone or voicing.

Of course this is all fine tuning an nuance, of which most players have no interest. I guess I'm a little nuts about it as I've been trained to not only (exactly) match pitch within an instrument section but timbre and gesture as well- which is why I have such a high sensitivity to this stuff.

I am also curious as you do your experiments if you do them at the same time of day. I ask because I have noticed and others have spoken about how the ear can get fatigued as the day wears on. Have you found that that has impacted how you hear and evaluate the tone and balance of your guitars or am I splitting hairs here?

Best,
Jayne

[Jeff Scott]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

I wish I could post recordings but the mics are put away as we're doing some messy remodeling.

You must be using the wrong contractors.

[Groberts]

Vindi, Super interesting observations you are making. Whether we call it "tone" or "voicing" or whatever ...that's just a matter of framing and labellin the sonic distinctions as a point of reference.

I recently change a set of Martin Authentic Lifespan 2.0 Light gauge strings on my new Martin HDC-28 to the same strings in Medium gauge. Before changing the strings I noticed a B string sound that was rather prominent. It almost had an additional sympathetic frequency. as I played just the "B String. It was weird. Saddle is brand new and nut slot seems Ok.

But I always string my Martin Dreads with Mediums. So I made the swap and that anomaly went away. Maybe the Mediums offer a better 'balance'. Not really sure. But I was thinking about the differences of strings aside from just 'tone'. I think of tone as being 'warm or dark, or bright or midrangey etc. But there are other attributes such as string to string balance and blend. I don't know whether to call those 'Voicing', but I see what you're trying to achieve.

Always enjoy your posts. Keep us posted!

[The Bard Rocks]

I think some definitions of "tone" and "Voicing" would be helpful as a lot of us are on the confused side of things here by the differences you assign to the two words..

[bufflehead]

Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks

I think some definitions of "tone" and "Voicing" would be helpful as a lot of us are on the confused side of things here by the differences you assign to the two words..

That would indeed be helpful. "Voicing" may be ambiguous because of how it is used in other guitar-related discourses. For example, in chord theory it describes how the same chord can stack the notes differently, such as the difference between the E cowboy chord and the same chord played as an A form barre on the 7th fret.

"Voicing" has an other meaning entirely to luthiers, where it's about controlling a guitar's tonal output.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by Groberts

Vindi, Super interesting observations you are making. Whether we call it "tone" or "voicing" or whatever ...that's just a matter of framing and labellin the sonic distinctions as a point of reference.

I recently change a set of Martin Authentic Lifespan 2.0 Light gauge strings on my new Martin HDC-28 to the same strings in Medium gauge. Before changing the strings I noticed a B string sound that was rather prominent. It almost had an additional sympathetic frequency. as I played just the "B String. It was weird. Saddle is brand new and nut slot seems Ok.

But I always string my Martin Dreads with Mediums. So I made the swap and that anomaly went away. Maybe the Mediums offer a better 'balance'. Not really sure. But I was thinking about the differences of strings aside from just 'tone'. I think of tone as being 'warm or dark, or bright or midrangey etc. But there are other attributes such as string to string balance and blend. I don't know whether to call those 'Voicing', but I see what you're trying to achieve.

Always enjoy your posts. Keep us posted!

Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks

I think some definitions of "tone" and "Voicing" would be helpful as a lot of us are on the confused side of things here by the differences you assign to the two words..

It's important to note that the word "voicing" is a homonym of sorts as I'm using it- differently than they do in the guitar building industry. I'm using it in more of the context as one would arrange music with different voice (i.e. choral ensemble). So in the context that I'm using it, think of each string as you would think of each individual vocalists in a vocal sextet.

When we think of a music ensemble; that vocal ensemble for example, they are ONE group made up of several individuals. Now think of the guitar with each string representing one of six individuals. So the music says that all voices should be sing mf. But if the Tenor in the group for example is louder than the rest of the voices in a harmony it disturbs the continuity and inadvertantly changes to voicing... or balance-which we now can use interchangably... except for timbre. A vocalist can simply be told to sing softer. A guitar has to be made so that all the strings start out evenly "voiced" (both volume and timbre) and that any differentiation in volume is created with intention (usually with the right hand)

Back to guitars... The first thing a play should be aware of is which strings make the guitar sound evenly balanced across the instrument. Critically balanced in volume, but also hopefully in timbre across the guitar so there aren't any strings significantly louder or softer, or brighter or darker, or zingier or deader than the others. There may be slight variations where the upper strings are more noticeable on one guitar than another, but there shouldn't be any strings that sound like outliers on the instrument.

And so while we generally perceive each guitar's sound more or less as "tone", the perceived tone is a composite of balance and timbre- which can be affected by strings; either those that compliment the nature of each guitar or in some way are a mismatch, creating volume imbalance in one or more strings or incontinuity of timbre.

Yeah, I know- nuance. Not everyone's thing. Thanks for reading this far.