preamp DI/ effects loop question

[steelvibe]

I’m looking for help in understanding something. I have some live sound experience but mostly tweaking my own gear on stage and not so much at the FOH. I have always used an active pickup through a passive DI and really hated the quality of my tone. Since that time I researched a great deal in order to improve in this area and have had successes at home (of course it involved upgrades in my gear as well). I ended up going with a passive pickup (K&K PW) and have been running this through an active DI (Fishman Platinum Stage). My tone has improved greatly but I’m not sure the Fishman is the final stop. I’m really intrigued by the Redeye and Redeye Twin especially since I use effects.

So now my question: I suspect that if you are using a passive pickup you want to run that signal through a preamp first in order to get the maximum signal to the front of the chain for better effects processing. Isn’t that kind of the whole reason for an effects loop? To run the signal hot through the effects and then back into the DI and pushing the wet signal to the FOH? The only other way I can see the chain with the equipment I have would be guitar effects Fishman Stage FOH. That method seems to me that a very weak signal would be pushed through the effects only then to be boosted at the DI just before going to the FOH. I guess what I’m asking is, “wouldn’t my tone be better with an effects loop and do I need to re-evaluate what I’m using at the DI stage?”

While I understand that it is empowering to experiment, I don’t have the equipment on hand to do so. Since my Pre/DI does not have an effects loop I have no choice but to see if some of you have first-hand experience. Might help me understand the importance (or not) of a new DI purchase!

[varmonter]

I have a grace design felix preamp.
it's a two channel pre. i also play mandolin.
I've used the effects loop on this pre to run
a reverb pedal , compression, and a looper.
I now run the guitar into the looper into the comp.
then into the reverb into an a/b box which divides
to go either ch 1 or ch 2 of the preamp.
I have decerned no difference in power or tone.
Running it in line with the looper first allows me
to loop a progression, hang the guitar up and walk
out and tweak my guitar sound in foh.

[lschwart]

In a general sense you are right that you want the preamp to come first, and that's why preamp/DI pedals that have effects loops are designed the way they are. The answer, however, is that it depends on what you're running.

In your own case, I would think that the input impedance of the pedals and whether they buffer the signal when off or bypass it would matter most. The signal of the K&K is pretty strong, but it needs a high input impedance (1 mOhm or higher). That aside, we're talking about a relatively short signal chain so there might not be that dramatic a difference aside from a little more noise (depending on how noisy the pedals are).

In my own experience with passive pickups (I use a K&K, a BigTone, and a Baggs M1), putting pedals in the loop of my Radial PZ-Pre works best--cleanest signal, most easily controlled--although I've run the K&K and the M1 directly into pedals, too, and that works OK with short cabling to either an acoustic amp or a DI box. Just a little noisier, especially with the M1, which has a quiet signal. Haven't tried it with the BigTone.

For me the biggest advantage to using the loop of the PZ-Pre is that I can either have the effects loop on all the time with an option to boost the signal for solos, or I can switch the loop in and out, with or without the boost. Each of those is necessary for me for different playing contexts.

Louis

[steelvibe]

Thanks guys. The Grace looks and sounds fantastic but out of my league price wise. I'm still thinking the RedEye Twin for 2 reasons; maximizing the signal prior to effects and the ability to A+B 2 different signals- and of course the fact that the Twin has an effects loop in the first place

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by steelvibe

Thanks guys. The Grace looks and sounds fantastic but out of my league price wise. I'm still thinking the RedEye Twin for 2 reasons; maximizing the signal prior to effects and the ability to A+B 2 different signals- and of course the fact that the Twin has an effects loop in the first place

If you want an effects loop and the ability to switch between 2 instruments, then the Red Eye Twin is a good option. The PZ-Pre also has two channels, which is another reason I use it. The Red Eye doesn't give you much in the way of EQ, but its treble controls are at least available on each channel independently. The PZ-Pre puts both channels through on EQ section. Among 2 channel, footswitch controlled preamps, only the Felix offers really full EQ on two separate channels.

Louis