Why do so many have a negative view of carbon fiber?

[RustyZombie]

In another thread I ask what others thought of the idea of selling a vintage guitar to fund a different guitar, one that happened to be made of carbon fiber. More than one person referred to carbon fiber guitars as plastic, with a negative connotation.

I don't expect carbon fiber to ever become the standard, but it is a very viable alternative. I know there are going to be a number of traditional people that just dislike anything new or different by default, but that many?

I could also understand if they just don't like the sound of carbon fiber, though that doesn't excuse calling it plastic. I'm sure there are wood acoustics they don't like the sound of, but they don't say every wood guitar is made of cardboard.

What is your guys' thoughts on this?

[Doubleneck]

To many people acoustic means wood and they really can't get over that. Many also love the look, feel, old world craftsmanship of wood. Nothing wrong with that. I really have no issue with those that prefer it, but there does seem to be a group that just is out to prove wood is the only way, and many have never really given carbon a shot. Their loss really. To say this board has a wood bias would be a pretty fair statement. But the carbon folks have to be ready to take the shots, comes with being on the edge of innovation. I let the word "plastic" roll off, its meant to evoke and I just will not go there with them. Life is too short and I would rather celebrate and share what is awesome about the instruments.

[cotten]

I don't own a carbon fiber guitar, but I have to confess that I would if I could! I've been amazed at how great they can sound, and I love their strength and durability. That said, not all carbon fiber guitars are alike. I've played some that I liked a great deal, while others left me cold. That's to be expected - not all wood guitars are great, either.

One thing I've learned about guitar players: few of us are opinion-less! We may not always know what we like, but we do like what we know! And to me it seems that we "grow up" as guitarists. When we're still "young" and inexperienced, we tend to be rather vocal and self assured in our preferences. We know exactly what is the best builder, the best strings or picks or capos or whatever. Then, as we begin to into and out of "adolescence" our horizons broaden, and we discover other builders we enjoy, other kinds of strings or accessories. It's not that we become wishy-washy in our thinking, it's that we discover how much there is yet to learn.

Then as we begin to reach "maturity," we find that our preferences and tastes begin to narrow. We may like guitars by dozens of different builders and different kinds of gear, but we tend to buy the ones we like the most. I don't think this is a bad thing. In fact, I think it's natural.

It seems to me that those who are most vocal in their dislike for carbon fiber guitars are either "young" and relatively inexperienced as a guitarist, or "mature" with a well developed sense of their own preferences.

cotten

[LionEyes]

I wouldn't say there are "so many" that have an extreme dislike of CF guitars
Alot of peeps just don't know that much about them, and naturally recoil from them to
something they are familiar with, wood. There are some who are dead set against CF,
and down grade them every chance they get. You just can't reason with types like this.
I have a friend who has a thing like this going on with Fender and Gibson electric guitars. He hates Gibson's. He gets on these forums and carrys on about how terrible gibson's are alot. I don't think he realizes how many are laughing at him.

Personally I think there's a place for CF and wood. And as we move forward CF will play
a more prominate role. I have both wood and CF, and they all sound real good. If I had to,
I could choose anyone and move forward in life and be happy with just that one guitar.

[Claytone]

There are guitarists who can make music with fishing line on a cigar box...
There are guitarists who can make wood and carbon fiber sing...
Who knows...in the next century guitarists may be playing a holographic version that will send shivers down the spine...it's all good!!!
At least the CF guitars will still be playing then...ain't progress grand?

[RP]

To put this thread into perspective, James, you had previously posed a question in the General Acoustic Guitar Discussion to members whether you should trade a 1967 Gibson ES-335 for an Emerald Chimaera double neck guitar. The overwhelming response was "No" for various reasons. I'm not taking sides nor trying to diss anybody, but I think that folks generally thought that the proposed trade was such a bad idea that several members referred to the Emerald as a plastic guitar. I don't know whether that's technically true or not, but I do think that this was hyperbole based on these members' strong feeling against the trade itself. Wooden guitars have been around for several centuries while carbon fiber guitars have been around for several decades so it's not unreasonable to assume that all guitarists aren't going to immediately jump on the CF bandwagon...

[HHP]

I've tried some, didn't care for them. Little appeal in terms of how they sound and how they look. Others may like it. As far as being a viable alternative to wood, OK, except I don't find any need to consider an alternative since the primary choice is available is so many configurations and price ranges.

As far as calling them "plastic", you may bristle at the term but it isn't inaccurate.



"Carbon fibers are usually combined with other materials to form a composite. When combined with a plastic resin and wound or molded it forms carbon fiber reinforced plastic (often referred to as carbon fiber) "

[Doubleneck]

Originally Posted by HHP

I've tried some, didn't care for them. Little appeal in terms of how they sound and how they look. Others may like it. As far as being a viable alternative to wood, OK, except I don't find any need to consider an alternative since the primary choice is available is so many configurations and price ranges.

As far as calling them "plastic", you may bristle at the term but it isn't inaccurate.



"Carbon fibers are usually combined with other materials to form a composite. When combined with a plastic resin and wound or molded it forms carbon fiber reinforced plastic (often referred to as carbon fiber) "

Similar logic could be used to say the Taylor guitars today's encases each of their guitars in a beautiful protective coating of plastic.

sprayed with UV-cured polyester - look up the definition of polyester.

Obviously the "plastic" is but one conponent and by calling them only plastic: it is done for effect not understanding.

[HHP]

Originally Posted by Doubleneck

Similar logic could be used to say the Taylor guitars today's encases each of their guitars in a beautiful protective coating of plastic.

sprayed with UV-cured polyester - look up the definition of polyester.

Obviously the "plastic" is but one conponent and by calling them only plastic: it is done for effect not understanding.

That would seem to be a reach. If you like the carbon instruments, why worry what someone else calls them, particularly if its not inaccurate?

[Doubleneck]

Originally Posted by HHP

That would seem to be a reach. If you like the carbon instruments, why worry what someone else calls them, particularly if its not inaccurate?

I'm not worried at all: but Taylor's covered in plastic is not a reach its reality, but words carry connotations. That's why Taylor uses polyester and CF uses epoxy. Plastic has the connotation of being "cheap" or less desirable. Reality CF material matrix costs more than wood. Again to isolate on the "cheap" sounding component is done for effect not understanding.

[mchalebk]

Originally Posted by HHP

I've tried some, didn't care for them. Little appeal in terms of how they sound and how they look. Others may like it. As far as being a viable alternative to wood, OK, except I don't find any need to consider an alternative since the primary choice is available is so many configurations and price ranges.

This is actually a pretty representative reason of why so many guitarists aren't impressed by CF guitars. First off, they're very skeptical. When trying out a wood guitar, a guitarist never thinks "I wonder if this material can produce a decent sound?" However, this is exactly what happens when they try a CF guitar. Not conducive to an unbiased trial.

The other thing is so many players try one or two, don't care for them, and then decide they don't like the sound of CF guitars. HHP, can you tell us which CF guitars you've tried? There are several manufacturers offering multiple models, each with their own characteristics. Trying out one or two and thinking you have any idea of what CF has to offer for acoustic guitars would be like trying out a couple of wood guitars and thinking you knew what all wood guitars sound like.

Originally Posted by HHP

As far as calling them "plastic", you may bristle at the term but it isn't inaccurate.

We bristle at the term because people aren't using it as a scientific term, but in a demeaning fashion indicating that the guitar is made of inferior materials. It doesn't matter if there is some validity to the term (and it's very little validity), they aren't trying to be accurate, but dismissive.

[HHP]

Originally Posted by mchalebk

This is actually a pretty representative reason of why so many guitarists aren't impressed by CF guitars. First off, they're very skeptical. When trying out a wood guitar, a guitarist never thinks "I wonder if this material can produce a decent sound?" However, this is exactly what happens when they try a CF guitar. Not conducive to an unbiased trial.

The other thing is so many players try one or two, don't care for them, and then decide they don't like the sound of CF guitars. HHP, can you tell us which CF guitars you've tried? There are several manufacturers offering multiple models, each with their own characteristics. Trying out one or two and thinking you have any idea of what CF has to offer for acoustic guitars would be like trying out a couple of wood guitars and thinking you knew what all wood guitars sound like.

We bristle at the term because people aren't using it as a scientific term, but in a demeaning fashion indicating that the guitar is made of inferior materials. It doesn't matter if there is some validity to the term (and it's very little validity), they aren't trying to be accurate, but dismissive.

Over the years, I've mostly had opportunities to try Rainsong and CA Composite products. Did have a chance to meet with the guy who launched MX brand CF mandolins and try a couple prototypes. I didn't find anything on any of them that made me feel there was any benefit to me over traditional wood instruments and generally didn't find the sound to fit anything I play. Not an attempt at unbiased comparison, very biased as I didn't care for them and was certainly not willing to part with money to own one. In other words, evaluated the same as any other instrument.

As far as what you want to call it, I refer you to the definition posted earlier. It would seem to me that "Carbon Fiber" alone is as accurate or inaccurate as
"plastic" as the designation depends on the lamination formula.

If you like them, like then for what they are and what they offer you. I just assessed that they don't really offer me any benefit.

[short bald guy]

I call my Rainsong plastic all the time......
But...here is my own story. I built a wooden drift boat many years back, from scratch. I was able to actually build this boat WITH the person that designed it, and made a living selling boats and kits all over the fishing world. Long story short, Ray (the builder) lived near me and knew I wanted a wooden boat, but had no place to construct one. He invited me up to his place to build one there and then let me know that I was not going to be building a "kit" but a scratch built boat. And with a master of the craft......
Just prior to starting this project, I bought a Rainsong (WS1000) that was fantastic. Played and sounded very well. But it was not wood. Loved that guitar, but I was immersed in building a piece of floating FINE furniture. During that process, I learned a great deal about Sapele (sp?), Western Red Cedar, Pine, Ash, Walnut and Oak. Why and how for each. Adhesives and finishes. I would come home and play that guitar and kept thinking that it was not wood. If I had been blind I might still have that guitar! But it needed to be wood. What I learned was quite valid regarding wood boats. Since then I have had fiberglass and metal boats. And you know what? They were all boats. And they all worked well.
Fast forward....I eventually figured out that wood makes a fine guitar and is quite traditional. But the music is about the sound that we make. Not what it is made of, but the sound. If it sounds good, it IS good.
I can usually tell who has played a good CF guitar by what they say about it. People that play music well invariably say "it's good!", but it may not be something they would buy. NOT being wood is a big issue. And the clear sound they make is certainly not for everyone. Most of us prefer a certain tone in our instruments. And CF IS good, but is as different as Martin and Taylor are.

[Acousticado]

BlackmoresNight, see my post in your thread in the General forum.

[RP]

Originally Posted by HHP

As far as what you want to call it, I refer you to the definition posted earlier. It would seem to me that "Carbon Fiber" alone is as accurate or inaccurate as
"plastic" as the designation depends on the lamination formula.

If you don't like the word, blame it on Dustin Hoffman...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSxihhBzCjk