So, exactly how tough are these carbon fiber guitars?

[airguitarro]

Unless you are taking it for camping or the outdoors and since you seem mroe concerned about fitting the guitar into the cabin overhead compartments, I reckon you would better off with a collapsible or folding wooden guitar rather than with a carbon guitar - i.e a Brunner or a Voyage Air. I understand tha Brunner even makes a folding carbon fiber guitar now.

[backdrifter]

Originally Posted by airguitarro

...I understand tha Brunner even makes a folding carbon fiber guitar now.

Thanks for the feedback guys. Airguitarro - I'm thinking you're right. When I'm honest with myself, there are few times that I would truly need the ability for a guitar to withstand getting wet, or severe changes of weather. I mostly travel for business, and you're right, I'm more concerned about ease of carry-on than I am indestructability.

I checked Brunner's website, but didn't see the folding c/f guitar. Do you have more info on this? Honestly, I think that would be my PERFECT travel guitar, assuming it's a full or almost full scale length. Any additional information on this is greatly appreciated!

[dgrolem]

Have you considered the CA OX? Full-scale and lightweight etc.

[backdrifter]

Yes, it's a nice guitar for sure, but it's not quite as compact or portable, so I would need to check it at the baggage counter quite often. That becomes a problem because I can either risk damage in a soft gig bag that is easy to carry around (with shoulder straps) or be inconvenienced by carrying around a full size hard case every time I fly. Niether is ideal, so I'm not really considering the OX at this time. Too bad too, because I REALLY like the design and the sound, from what I can tell on YouTube comparisons.

[J.R. Rogers]

How tough are they? Let's just say if you happen to drop your CA onto a tile floor it will probably just bounce. Don't ask me how I know this. ...And don't try it with your Olson.

JR

[Tone Gopher]

Originally Posted by aieauka

Both these gtrs are entirely carbon graphite and strong gtrs which will survive the harshest treatment- not that you would want to. But by being carbon graphite, they are also the most carefree type gtrs too and can be left in a hot/cold car trunk in the summmer/winter.

Not so. Carbon fiber guitars are not indestructible. Carbon fiber layups are very notch sensitive - a scratch will reduce tensile strength considerably. The reason that bicycles are lasting better these days is that the manufacturers are covering them with a thick cosmetic weave to protect the underlying layers. I don't know that that is the case with all guitar layups. I would not assume so.

Nor should one assume that just because the layup is relatively insensitive to temperature extremes that their glue joints will hold up well in high temperatures with the strings at tension.

Enjoy the lil' guys but don't purposefully abuse 'em. It would be interesting to compare the various manufacturer's warranties to see if they believe that their products will indeed endure anything - and be covered in case of failure.

[FlySig]

Originally Posted by backdrifter

Would you feel comfortable checking a medium to full size carbon fiber guitar in a padded gig bag with the airlines on a regular basis?

No. I'm an airline pilot and cringe every time I see a soft case left at gate check. Get a hard case and detune the strings a bit. Some airlines will not honor damage claims for instruments tuned to concert pitch. Check airline policies on their websites for specifics and print it out to bring to the airport. Some ticket agents or even gate agents will pressure you to check an instrument through when it is not airline policy to require it. Some airlines will allow guitars in the overhead, space permitting. As always, the flight attendants are the final authority on carry-on bags, so be polite and ask for assistance. There may be a coat closet available. It is even within regs and policy to seat belt an instrument into an unoccupied seat, so you may be able to do that on a smaller regional jet when it doesn't fit overhead but there are empty seats.

[Steve Christens]

My take would be a bit different. I would not travel with any acoustic guitar expected to ALWAYS be able to carry it aboard. (Except may a Backpacker or Vagabond sized instrument.) So being able to check it, in its hard case, is a must. The thing about a graphite guitar is that it will easily stand up to the kind of cased abuse that would destroy other guitars. Like being dropped a few feet on its tail without smashing the body, or falling over flat without cracking the headstock.

With a good wood acoustic guitar I would always be fearful when checking a guitar - even in a Calton case.

Put another way, if Dave Carroll had been traveling with a Rainsong or CA, I don't think he would had needed to write his "United Breaks Guitars" song!

[Aaron Smith]

Originally Posted by Tone Gopher

Not so. Carbon fiber guitars are not indestructible. Carbon fiber layups are very notch sensitive - a scratch will reduce tensile strength considerably. The reason that bicycles are lasting better these days is that the manufacturers are covering them with a thick cosmetic weave to protect the underlying layers. I don't know that that is the case with all guitar layups. I would not assume so.

Nor should one assume that just because the layup is relatively insensitive to temperature extremes that their glue joints will hold up well in high temperatures with the strings at tension.

Enjoy the lil' guys but don't purposefully abuse 'em. It would be interesting to compare the various manufacturer's warranties to see if they believe that their products will indeed endure anything - and be covered in case of failure.

I have noticed that while CA actively markets their durability, Rainsong is VERY conservative about making any claims. On the other hand, a bicycle frame is subjected to high loads repeatedly, while a guitar (should) only be subjected to string vibration. Fatigue life should be less of a consideration.
On a related note- can anyone out there recommend an aftermarket hard case for air travel with a CA Cargo?

[Tone Gopher]

Originally Posted by Aaron Smith

On the other hand, a bicycle frame is subjected to high loads repeatedly, while a guitar (should) only be subjected to string vibration. Fatigue life should be less of a consideration.

It's not about fatigue - a crack makes the strained element notch sensitive. I did some fatigue testing for Boeing while I was in grad school. The samples came nowhere near estimated strength (used to determine the meaningful range of loading in fatigue). Why? Turns out that the machine shop tried to do me a "favor" by lightly sanding the samples near the ends where the grip tabs were glued. Yep. Every darn sample broke at the interface of the first scratch on the sample.

Like I think I said, the cosmetic overcoat on bicycles is to protect against scratches. Nothing to do with fatigue. Everything to do with tensile loading.

[gitnoob]

Originally Posted by Aaron Smith

On a related note- can anyone out there recommend an aftermarket hard case for air travel with a CA Cargo?

The Cargo is just a tad smaller than a Larrivee Parlor, so any case that fits the Larrivee should also work for the Cargo. E.g., the Gator 3/4 case.

[Aaron Smith]

Originally Posted by Tone Gopher

It's not about fatigue - a crack makes the strained element notch sensitive. I did some fatigue testing for Boeing while I was in grad school. The samples came nowhere near estimated strength (used to determine the meaningful range of loading in fatigue). Why? Turns out that the machine shop tried to do me a "favor" by lightly sanding the samples near the ends where the grip tabs were glued. Yep. Every darn sample broke at the interface of the first scratch on the sample.

Like I think I said, the cosmetic overcoat on bicycles is to protect against scratches. Nothing to do with fatigue. Everything to do with tensile loading.

Thanks for the clarification. It's been a long time since engineering school- I always remembered notch sensitivity being discussed in reference to fatigue life or impact toughness.
In either case, it seems like under normal use a guitar would not be subjected to loads anywhere near the tensile strength or endurance limit of the composite, even if scratched. But the "normal use" is the important part, and I agree with you that these should be treated like musical instruments and not indestructible objects.

[DoronD]

For what it's worth, I own both (I was one of the first that I know of to post a video of the Cargo on youtube, a couple years ago...it's the first one that pops up when you type in cargo guitar) here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWEYXbl3T3Q

I loved that guitar, and used it quite a bit. Took it to New Zealand with me, Burning Man, etc. Always got great reactions at the sound and look. After a while though, I realized that the short scale really was a drawback, and I ordered the Blackbird Rider (and Super OM from them as well.)

Both are great guitars, both super solid. For what it's worth, as a huge fan of the cargo, I gotta say I like the Rider more. It sounds better and fuller to me, and the scale makes it a lot easier to transition to from my other guitars. I'll post a video today comparing them and hopefully that will help you some.

I do understand the cost being a factor. It's not easy to part with that much more cash. But all I can say is that if cash were not a factor, the rider would be my choice. If it is a factor, the Cargo is great, even with the short scale problem. I'll be selling my Cargo of 2 years now that I have the Blackbird.

Hope that helps for now...

[mkatz]

I bought a Cargo about a year and a half ago and have taken it on numerous flights, including commuter planes, and have never had to check it. I also have a Go Guitar which is a true travel size guitar with a 24.5" scale for when I want something smaller and lighter to travel with.

http://www.go-guitars.com/guitars.html

More recently I have started playing the ukulele and as much as I love playing the guitar, the ukulele is so light and easy to deal with that I have stopped traveling with a guitar. The uke in a gig bag fits under the seat in front of me or in the overhead after everybody else is seated and has their bags stored.

Mitch