How to separate the Guitar and Vocals?

[Mbroady]

Originally Posted by CASD57

And use the Blumlein technic?

The blemiein technique is more about capturing, recreating and/or adding spatial characteristics on a recorded signal.

Using 2 figure 8 mics allows you to use the null spot on the mic to reduce the input of a sorce that the null faces. Think of it as blind spot spot on a mic. Do a google search for "recording vocals and guitar at the same time using figure 8 microphones". There are some good vids that can explain it a lot better then I can. You will not get complete separation with this technique, but with 2 well placed mics on a figure 8 pattern you can get surprisingly good separation.

[CASD57]

Why not use two super cardiod Mic's ? one on the guitar and one of Vocals ?

[BoneDigger]

As others have mentioned, I typically record a reference track then play and sing individually as two separate tracks. Usually guitar first, then vocals. Occasionally I do both at the same time. In those instances I try to point the mics at the source and away from the other. So, if I am using an SDC for guitar, it will usually be facing down toward the guitar and away from the vocals. The LDC for vocals is often an SM7b which tends to focus slight better than many. I point it up toward my vocals. I still get bleed over but it's manageable.

[Mbroady]

Originally Posted by CASD57

Why not use two super cardiod Mic's ? one on the guitar and one of Vocals ?

From my experience you would need to face the back of the super cardioid mic at the source you are trying not to have on the track. This Makes mic placement hard, considering all source would be within a 45 degree angle from each other, which is optimal for a figure 8 null.

It would help if you have some sound absorption in the back of the figure 8 mics

[keith.rogers]

Originally Posted by BoneDigger

As others have mentioned, I typically record a reference track then play and sing individually as two separate tracks. Usually guitar first, then vocals. Occasionally I do both at the same time. In those instances I try to point the mics at the source and away from the other. So, if I am using an SDC for guitar, it will usually be facing down toward the guitar and away from the vocals. The LDC for vocals is often an SM7b which tends to focus slight better than many. I point it up toward my vocals. I still get bleed over but it's manageable.

The SM7b is a dynamic mic, so LDC ("C" is for condenser) is a typo I guess. I don't think there are LDD or SDD equivalent acronyms, though the SM7b does have a larger diaphragm than the SM57, et al.

I have been using a smaller diaphragm mic for vocal (experimenting with both dynamic and condenser), in addition to just a single SDC on guitar lately when recording vocal and guitar together. Kind of a vertical XY configuration. It's a little better separation than using LDCs, but you have to give up a bit of the LDCs ability to capture the whole guitar, so placement becomes more critical.

I'm not a big fan of super/hyper-cardioid mics for vocals in this kind of application because many folks who are recording like this do not have the best mic technique to begin with, and tend to look at the fingerboard mid-verse or phrase. You really want a bigger or "looser" cardioid pattern to keep that from resulting in a very uneven take on the "vocal" mic. It might work on the instrument mic better, unless the player is moving around a lot, but their best application is in high-volume stages with performers that can stay on the mic. (N.B. Do not using super/hyper-c's where the back-node of the pattern is going to pick up a floor monitor - the Beta58s actually come with a little paper thing to help you place the mic so the monitors are placed in the nulls. Especially don't use that type on a guitar cabinet close to a floor wedge - DAMHIKT )

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by Mbroady

From my experience you would need to face the back of the super cardioid mic at the source you are trying not to have on the track.

Super cardioids pick up a fair amount on the backside. Cardioids usually have better back side rejection than super cardioids.
Various patterns can be seen here.

[Mbroady]

Originally Posted by jim1960

Super cardioids pick up a fair amount on the backside. Cardioids usually have better back side rejection than super cardioids.
Various patterns can be seen here.

Cool, thanks for the clarification. Based on the diagrams it still seems you would get better off access rejection from a figure eight over a hypercardioid polar pattern. Is this your experience? This assumes you have a decent sounding room and/ or properly placed sound absorption

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by Mbroady

Cool, thanks for the clarification. Based on the diagrams it still seems you would get better off access rejection from a figure eight over a hypercardioid polar pattern. Is this your experience? This assumes you have a decent sounding room and/ or properly placed sound absorption

You would get better rejection using figure eights but other things come into play that you have to deal with. As you said, you need a "decent" room, and in this case I'd define "decent" as meaning good. You need a good room. This is not going to be an ideal option for most bedroom studios or for small room studios. The other consideration is what a mic sounds like. Not everyone is going to like their vocals recorded through a ribbon mic. If recording with two ribbons requires compromising the vocal track, it's a bad choice. I'm not saying vocals can't be recorded with ribbons; I'm simply saying it's usually not the best choice.

[FrankHudson]

Have we heard back from the OP? We've all given good advice about reducing or eliminating bleed, which was in his original thread title, but I got the impression that he was acutely dealing with his guitar sounding bad with his mic(s) and was thinking (assuming?) that bleed caused that--or will always cause that.

Particularly if you don't have a soft, crooning voice, I think you can get good performances for the guitar and vocal, even with one mic, when it's placed right in a decent room. Assuming the OP wants to record vocal and guitar in one pass (and doesn't need separation for effects or post-performance editing) wouldn't it useful to assess microphone placement?

Again, apologies, I'm not an expert, and those here that know more are free to adjust....

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by CASD57

I'm having a problem with my guitar bleeding into the vocal mic.
At first I wanted to record like that...Like a real performance but my guitar sounds like poo that way
I'm now thinking I want to separate the vocals and guitar but how do I?

I'm reading between the lines a bit regarding your experience level. I'd probably do it in this order:

1. Record a "road map" track, singing and playing on one mic, that's just a guide to get you from one end to the other.

2. Overdub a "serious" guitar part over it. Do it in as many pieces as you need to, but makes sure it's solid and stands alone without any help from the roadmap guitar.

3. Then do the vocal the same way.

[CASD57]

Originally Posted by FrankHudson

Have we heard back from the OP? We've all given good advice about reducing or eliminating bleed, which was in his original thread title, but I got the impression that he was acutely dealing with his guitar sounding bad with his mic(s) and was thinking (assuming?) that bleed caused that--or will always cause that.



Particularly if you don't have a soft, crooning voice, I think you can get good performances for the guitar and vocal, even with one mic, when it's placed right in a decent room. Assuming the OP wants to record vocal and guitar in one pass (and doesn't need separation for effects or post-performance editing) wouldn't it useful to assess microphone placement?



Again, apologies, I'm not an expert, and those here that know more are free to adjust....

Lol no soft voice here
I just find when i eq the voice the guitar doesn't sound good.
In part my guitar is loud so it becomes overbearing, im working on a softer touch when i record but on faster songs its hard .
I have a figure mic but i need to setup my Zoom R8 for the phantom power and XLR input, ill work on it tonight

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by CASD57

Lol no soft voice here
I just find when i eq the voice the guitar doesn't sound good.
In part my guitar is loud so it becomes overbearing, im working on a softer touch when i record but on faster songs its hard .
I have a figure mic but i need to setup my Zoom R8 for the phantom power and XLR input, ill work on it tonight

It's very difficult to nail everything you want in a solo recording doing it as a single "live" take.

When you set your R8 up for your typical take it will streamline the process a bunch if you save your setup and re-name it "Template 1". Each time you start a new recording just pull up your template file and then select a "New Project". All your template settings will follow your new recordings and there's no need to re-select all your preferences.

Here's a copy/paste from my "Simplified Home Recording" web page that might give you a good overview of how to successfully implement your songs using the R8.

************************

A method for effective solo projects

If you're doing a total DIY project it can be difficult to end up with a finished product that has emotion and feeling. I like to first record a scratch track and then add overdubs of all tracks that the final mix will be composed of. The scratch track is used to lock in the emotion and feel of the piece and is not included on the completed piece.

This method works well, but requires mapping out your finished mix beforehand. If you're careful with locking in with the top of the tune after the count-in you can wind up with an excellent finished product.

The first step for recording a song that's going to end up with the emotion and feel that you intended is to first record a good solid mono vocal/rhythm guitar version with a good count in. The count in is necessary so you can start successive overdubs at the exact place you want them to begin. Do this "scratch track" as many times as it takes to nail the feel for what you are trying to accomplish, but don't worry about polish; this is a reference track and will eventually be deleted.

Once you're satisfied with the feel of your scratch track it's time to overdub the "real" rhythm guitar and bass. Overdub these while listening to the scratch track as many times as necessary until you are happy with the result. For a final test mute the scratch track and listen to the rhythm tracks to make sure you're happy with the result before moving on to vocals or additional instruments. These will form the base of your completed work, so make sure they are right before moving on.

After the "keeper versions" of the basic rhythm tracks are recorded the scratch track can now by turned down to a lower background level so you can concentrate on adding the main vocal, which I usually find the hardest part. You can do it in a few passes and easily comp the best parts of your performance; the same can be done with your other parts like lead guitar or any other instruments you choose to add.

As an alternative to listening to the scratch track while overdubbing you can copy and paste the count-in portion of your original scratch track to a separate track and mute your original "scratch track" if that makes overdubs easier for you. Be sure to keep the scratch track with the count-in until it's no longer needed, you can always mute it if you don't need to hear it in the mix as you overdub additional tracks.

After you've got the basic rhythm tracks, vocals, and additional instrument tracks recorded you're then ready to move on to "mix down".

If you've worked on a stand alone recorder it's now time to dump your files to computer, import them into your editing program, and mix them to you're liking. Apply EQ, adjust left to right track panning, add effects, top and tail your tracks to eliminate excess time before start and finish, and apply fade ins and fade outs to finish up your song.

The final mix down is most often referred to within an audio editing program as "Rendering", and it's during this process that you choose the format of the finished mix. Normally you will want to render as 44.1 Khz 16 bit audio which can be burned directly to CD to play in any standard player. Some editing programs will also render directly as MP3, although I recommend that you render as 44.1 Khz 16 bit audio as a "final" format and then use an audio format conversion program (there are several good freeware options) if you also require the MP3 format.

[CASD57]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

It's very difficult to nail everything you want in a solo recording doing it as a single "live" take.

When you set your R8 up for your typical take it will streamline the process a bunch if you save your setup and re-name it "Template 1". Each time you start a new recording just pull up your template file and then select a "New Project". All your template settings will follow your new recordings and there's no need to re-select all your preferences.

Here's a copy/paste from my "Simplified Home Recording" web page that might give you a good overview of how to successfully implement your songs using the R8.

************************

A method for effective solo projects

If you're doing a total DIY project it can be difficult to end up with a finished product that has emotion and feeling. I like to first record a scratch track and then add overdubs of all tracks that the final mix will be composed of. The scratch track is used to lock in the emotion and feel of the piece and is not included on the completed piece.

This method works well, but requires mapping out your finished mix beforehand. If you're careful with locking in with the top of the tune after the count-in you can wind up with an excellent finished product.

The first step for recording a song that's going to end up with the emotion and feel that you intended is to first record a good solid mono vocal/rhythm guitar version with a good count in. The count in is necessary so you can start successive overdubs at the exact place you want them to begin. Do this "scratch track" as many times as it takes to nail the feel for what you are trying to accomplish, but don't worry about polish; this is a reference track and will eventually be deleted.

Once you're satisfied with the feel of your scratch track it's time to overdub the "real" rhythm guitar and bass. Overdub these while listening to the scratch track as many times as necessary until you are happy with the result. For a final test mute the scratch track and listen to the rhythm tracks to make sure you're happy with the result before moving on to vocals or additional instruments. These will form the base of your completed work, so make sure they are right before moving on.

After the "keeper versions" of the basic rhythm tracks are recorded the scratch track can now by turned down to a lower background level so you can concentrate on adding the main vocal, which I usually find the hardest part. You can do it in a few passes and easily comp the best parts of your performance; the same can be done with your other parts like lead guitar or any other instruments you choose to add.

As an alternative to listening to the scratch track while overdubbing you can copy and paste the count-in portion of your original scratch track to a separate track and mute your original "scratch track" if that makes overdubs easier for you. Be sure to keep the scratch track with the count-in until it's no longer needed, you can always mute it if you don't need to hear it in the mix as you overdub additional tracks.

After you've got the basic rhythm tracks, vocals, and additional instrument tracks recorded you're then ready to move on to "mix down".

If you've worked on a stand alone recorder it's now time to dump your files to computer, import them into your editing program, and mix them to you're liking. Apply EQ, adjust left to right track panning, add effects, top and tail your tracks to eliminate excess time before start and finish, and apply fade ins and fade outs to finish up your song.

The final mix down is most often referred to within an audio editing program as "Rendering", and it's during this process that you choose the format of the finished mix. Normally you will want to render as 44.1 Khz 16 bit audio which can be burned directly to CD to play in any standard player. Some editing programs will also render directly as MP3, although I recommend that you render as 44.1 Khz 16 bit audio as a "final" format and then use an audio format conversion program (there are several good freeware options) if you also require the MP3 format.

Thank You! I'll try this out this weekend