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  #1  
Old 07-31-2017, 08:30 AM
Long Jon Long Jon is offline
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Default Carbon Tuners ?

What happened to these ? http://heart-sound.com/en/products/g...ning-machines/

I seem to remember reading that Emerald might use these, or that they might work with the manufacturer on improving them in some way.

They look great, but presumably are not up to snuff for becomng a standard option on any c.f guitars ?
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Old 07-31-2017, 09:07 AM
ac ac is offline
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Good question. I had email correspondence with them sometime back and asked a series of questions. They said they would do testing and get back to me, but I never heard further.

If the gears would wear well, they could be something special, they are SO light.
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Old 07-31-2017, 09:42 AM
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I can speak to this.

I held out for a long time on my new, soon-to-arrive Chimaera 6/12 doubleneck order while in discussion with both Heart-Sound and Alistair in the hope to have the best weight-balanced guitar. This is based on my experience with past Chimaeri which were equipped with the lightweight Gotoh Stealth tuners (11.4g ea.) and very well balanced, especially the best-balanced first generation before Emerald began installing truss rods, but Alistair stopped offering the Stealths due to failures (not mine), likely pushed their max. tension rating of 44 lbs. I have been concerned that the Gotoh 510s (33.2g ea.) that Emerald is now using might be too heavy, especially given my past experience with lighter versions. Alistair has believed that the H-S tuners (7g ea.) are a great solution based on his experience with a sample set and has really hoped they could work, but sourcing from the Italian manufacturer has proven dodgy and there is an aesthetic issue.

For my latest coco Chimaera, Alistair did arrange to get 18 of the H-S tuners from the Italian company to install on it. I could have had them if I wanted them, but as I mentioned, their aesthetic is an issue when it matters to the player. Let's just say that they have a 'raw grey/black' look and although Alistair has experimented with buffing them out, they still don't complement the otherwise beauty of Emerald guitars. The H-S company has told me they have no plans to offer anything other than what they do now.

So, Alistair recommended that I not go with the H-Ss because they are untried and that he can't guarantee I will be satisfied with the best he can do with the finish. I think these H-S tuners will work well on satin finish guitars, especially in a grey/black finish. If I was going for an Opus Chimaera (black) with the crystal ice finish, the H-Ss may look great.

IMO, the only reason to opt for the H-Ss on a guitar is where neck dive is an issue and for most 6 string acoustics, this isn't really much of a problem. As Emerald is the only builder of 12, 18 and more strings, H-S tuners would be a great option if they can ever produce a more aesthetically pleasing product.

I should have my new Chimaera sometime this week. Admittedly, I am anxious about the weight-balance issue. Alistair has advised me that those with 510 installed tuners do not seem to be having any problem with them...though unlike me, they haven't experienced the best balanced among the three generations of the Chimaera. My fingers are crossed.
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Last edited by Acousticado; 07-31-2017 at 04:17 PM.
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Old 07-31-2017, 10:02 AM
Long Jon Long Jon is offline
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Thanks for the comprehensive answer Tom.

So, Alistair should have at least 18 of these in his surplus parts bin . . . They might be nice to try on a plain Opus X7 (less string tension)..... Just swap 'em for Gotohs if they ever failed .
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Old 07-31-2017, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Jon View Post
Thanks for the comprehensive answer Tom.

So, Alistair should have at least 18 of these in his surplus parts bin . . . They might be nice to try on a plain Opus X7 (less string tension)..... Just swap 'em for Gotohs if they ever failed .
You're welcome, Jon.

Alistair arranged to get them, but I believe my decision was made before he actually followed through. But I could be wrong. Of course, you can ask him.

The H-Ss could look good on an Opus guitar. I did consider the potential for a swap-out if I didn't like the H-Ss, but Sean advised me that there will be a screw hole that will likely show...on the back of the headstock, I think, which may not bother some...it would me, which was a factor in my final decision to just go with the 510s. If the X7 ships with the 510s as the default tuners, if you can't get the H-Ss, given that the X7 has less tension, maybe Alistair would still install the Gotoh Stealths. You could also ask him about that option.
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Last edited by Acousticado; 07-31-2017 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 07-31-2017, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Acousticado View Post
You're welcome, Jon.

Alistair arranged to get them, but I believe my decision was made before he actually followed through. But as could be wrong. Of course, you can ask him.

The H-Ss could look good on an Opus guitar. I did consider the potential for a swap-out if I didn't like the H-Ss, but there will be a screw hole that will likely show...on the back of the headstock, I think, which may not bother some...it would me, which was a factor in my final decision to just go with the 510s. If the X7 ships with the 510s as the default tuners, if you can't get the H-Ss, given that the X7 has less tension, maybe Alistair would still install the Gotoh Stealths. You could also ask him about that option.
So Alistair didn't actually get these tuners, correct?

So if he has not tried them, I wonder if we can find someone online who has been using them for a period of time? I'd like to know how they hold up over time. My concern was that the carbon on carbon gears would slowly wear away--but I have no real idea if that is a concern or not. They may be bullet proof for all I know.

It would be nice to hear actual user experience not connected to the manufacturer sometime. Off to Google now.
----------------
Back after a quick search. Found nothing at all. No reviews. No Youtube reviews either.
Maybe someone else can search and have better luck.

Last edited by ac; 07-31-2017 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 07-31-2017, 12:00 PM
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So Alistair didn't actually get these tuners, correct?

So if he has not tried them, I wonder if we can find someone online who has been using them for a period of time? I'd like to know how they hold up over time. My concern was that the carbon on carbon gears would slowly wear away--but I have no real idea if that is a concern or not. They may be bullet proof for all I know.

It would be nice to hear actual user experience not connected to the manufacturer sometime. Off to Google now.
l know for sure that Alistair has had a set of 6 H-S tuners for some time (I think even before they were ever mentioned on the AGF) and that he has experimented with them including trying to improve the finish, but has not been able to his satisfaction. From his time with them, he was of the opinion that they are good and robust enough and would be ideal for his guitars, especially for those with LOTS of strings, but because of the added difficulty in getting them from the Italian company for whatever reason, he has not been able to offer them which has been a disappointment.

After a long time of discussion with Alistair and Heart-Sound directly, knowing my desire for them, Alistair was finally able to source sufficient H-S tuners for my Chimaera (might have been NOS, not sure), but in the end, I have taken his advice not to go with them. So, I'm not certain if he actually ordered the 18, or not. It would be great to hear from a player who has experience with them, but it's a real long shot. I'm trusting Alistair's view.

Edit: I had asked Alistair if it would be possible to apply the same gloss black paint being used on the b&s of my new coco woody Chimaera to the H-S tuner components (exposed parts) and he said it would be, but there would be no guarantee that the paint wouldn't wear off over time, specially on the buttons or string posts.
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Old 07-31-2017, 01:15 PM
Long Jon Long Jon is offline
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Keen observers will notice that I seem to be considering another X7, having given away the first one in a fit of stupid ....
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Old 07-31-2017, 04:40 PM
ac ac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acousticado View Post
l know for sure that Alistair has had a set of 6 H-S tuners for some time (I think even before they were ever mentioned on the AGF) and that he has experimented with them including trying to improve the finish, but has not been able to his satisfaction. From his time with them, he was of the opinion that they are good and robust enough and would be ideal for his guitars, especially for those with LOTS of strings, but because of the added difficulty in getting them from the Italian company for whatever reason, he has not been able to offer them which has been a disappointment.

After a long time of discussion with Alistair and Heart-Sound directly, knowing my desire for them, Alistair was finally able to source sufficient H-S tuners for my Chimaera (might have been NOS, not sure), but in the end, I have taken his advice not to go with them. So, I'm not certain if he actually ordered the 18, or not. It would be great to hear from a player who has experience with them, but it's a real long shot. I'm trusting Alistair's view.

Edit: I had asked Alistair if it would be possible to apply the same gloss black paint being used on the b&s of my new coco woody Chimaera to the H-S tuner components (exposed parts) and he said it would be, but there would be no guarantee that the paint wouldn't wear off over time, specially on the buttons or string posts.
Well, it's good news Alistair considers them as tuners that could be used. They interest me, but from searching the web, it doesn't seem there are any real reviews of them or other user experiences that people are writing about.

Hopefully these won't go the way of that French CF guitar maker. They make a few nice looking instruments, almost sent some to McNichols, then went silent and disappeared. Finally, their website vanished also. I really hoping this company makes it and their design holds up over time.
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Old 07-31-2017, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ac View Post
Well, it's good news Alistair considers them as tuners that could be used. They interest me, but from searching the web, it doesn't seem there are any real reviews of them or other user experiences that people are writing about.

Hopefully these won't go the way of that French CF guitar maker. They make a few nice looking instruments, almost sent some to McNichols, then went silent and disappeared. Finally, their website vanished also. I really hoping this company makes it and their design holds up over time.
Yes, but for wide appeal they have to do something about the aesthetic. Only one bland looking model just won't cut it.
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Wood: '02 Taylor 814c | '18 Taylor 214ceDLX | '18 Taylor 150e-12 | '79 Ibanez Dread (First acoustic) | '02 Fender Strat-American '57 RI (Replaced vintage 58)
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My original songs
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Old 08-01-2017, 05:51 AM
ac ac is offline
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For me, being light weight and the reasonably small size is a plus. The aesthetics do not bother me, if all else is in order, and seem at home on an otherwise carbon fiber. With beautiful wood veneer added? It might be a tougher sell.

My first time looking at Emerald's distinctive guitar shapes actually put me off. I never realized how solidly entrenched I was in my idea of what guitars "needed" to look like.

Now, I am so comfortable with their designs that other designs seem uninteresting to me. Nothing negative about other designs, but I actually prefer Emerald's look.

I will also mention the same was true for CA's less traditional designs, Journey's design, and Blackbirds various non-traditional designs. I find them all appealing when once I certainly did not.

I look back and am surprised to see this change in myself and I still can't pinpoint why, and when I began to find formerly unacceptable designs--"acceptable"--then even "preferred".

Humans are bound by traditions. Traditions in our habits and practices, our aesthetics, etc. I recognize I still have many preferences still set in stone that probably have no logical reason, but will not disappear easily. For example, I much prefer gloss to satin for how a guitar should look. It doesn't seem "finished" unless it's gloss. That's not logical--it's just my strong preference.

The carbon fiber tuners, if they had the stability, feel, and longevity of Gotohs, would likely help me get past ANY difference in how they appear. First, I just need to hear some praise reports that are similar to what I've heard and what I've experienced with Gotoh before I'd step over the line with my credit card in hand.
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Old 08-02-2017, 07:16 AM
Captain Jim Captain Jim is offline
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For me, being light weight and the reasonably small size is a plus. The aesthetics do not bother me, if all else is in order, and seem at home on an otherwise carbon fiber. With beautiful wood veneer added? It might be a tougher sell.

My first time looking at Emerald's distinctive guitar shapes actually put me off. I never realized how solidly entrenched I was in my idea of what guitars "needed" to look like.

Now, I am so comfortable with their designs that other designs seem uninteresting to me. Nothing negative about other designs, but I actually prefer Emerald's look.

I will also mention the same was true for CA's less traditional designs, Journey's design, and Blackbirds various non-traditional designs. I find them all appealing when once I certainly did not.

I look back and am surprised to see this change in myself and I still can't pinpoint why, and when I began to find formerly unacceptable designs--"acceptable"--then even "preferred".

Humans are bound by traditions. Traditions in our habits and practices, our aesthetics, etc. I recognize I still have many preferences still set in stone that probably have no logical reason, but will not disappear easily. For example, I much prefer gloss to satin for how a guitar should look. It doesn't seem "finished" unless it's gloss. That's not logical--it's just my strong preference.

The carbon fiber tuners, if they had the stability, feel, and longevity of Gotohs, would likely help me get past ANY difference in how they appear. First, I just need to hear some praise reports that are similar to what I've heard and what I've experienced with Gotoh before I'd step over the line with my credit card in hand.
AC, that is a great description of the process some of us here have gone through. Since getting my Emeralds, other guitars now look "old fashioned" to me.

It took (and is still taking) a while for CF guitars to become accepted - that may be the same process for the CF tuners.

For a traditional wood similarity, check out some people's reluctance to accept a "light streaked" ebony for the fretboard.
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Old 08-02-2017, 09:14 AM
Earl49 Earl49 is offline
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Agreed. These are also the reasons that Taylor uses the "brown sugar" stain on their new maple guitars, so it looks dark brown like rosewood or mahogany. Traditionalists, we guitar players are.

I first got interested in CF when living in Alaska. It was all I could do to keep the indoor RH up to 20% during the winters. All the wood guitars had to live in their cases, and sponges got re-wet every Monday morning. I looked at the Ovation Adamas (too rich for my budget then) and finally the Rainsong when they came along. My LGS up there had one of the original uni-directional topped Maui-built Rainsong's at $3500 (also too rich for my budget at the same price as the Adama) and they sat on both guitars for years until they finally sold. But we made a side trip to Elderly on a family visit back to Michigan and had them ship a WS-1000 to Anchorage after extensive test playing in the store.

Back on topic, I would be interested in experiencing carbon fiber tuning machines, and see how they would be great for a twelve string, but have some doubts about their durability. CF is very strong, but I don't think it has the surface hardness necessary to avoid rapid wear of meshing gear faces. They might end up with a hybrid design with CF used almost everywhere -- except brass worm and pinion gears. It would still save considerable weight.
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