An observation about trying out guitars...

[fazool]

Originally Posted by beatcomber

I agree 100% when this comes to acoustic guitars

I totally disagree when this is applied to electric guitars (where Steve Vai plays so I don't understand him making this statement).

The entire electric guitar industry is about getting (and chasing) different tones. There is no way your "fingers" can make a rockabilly sound or a clean jazz sound or a scorching death metal sound just by technique. Your fingers can't create delay, chorus, echo, reverb, flange, phase, fuzz, overdrive, etc.

[RalphH]

Originally Posted by fazool

I agree 100% when this comes to acoustic guitars

I totally disagree when this is applied to electric guitars (where Steve Vai plays so I don't understand him).

Didn't you know? - he plays without amps or effects. His electric guitar isn't even plugged in.

On a serious note, I 100% agree with you and it's part of why I've drifted away from electric - I just got tired of being so reliant on a whole bunch of stuff to get the sounds I wanted - I'd decide that I'm going to play electric guitar I want it to sound exactly like James Hetfield on Master Of Puppets.... and I ending up doing more fiddling with tech than playing guitar.

[musicman1951]

Originally Posted by TBman

How I play on nylon (which is poorly) overshadowed whatever tonal differences the guitars had.

A couple of possibilities spring to mind:

1. Your "poorly" descriptor aside, the less experience you have on a particular kind of instrument is certainly a determining factor in the level of nuance you hear.

2. The price range was really very narrow, and I think the argument could be made that their might not have been a considerable difference in that narrow band. If we disregard the extremes on either end classical guitars run from around $200 - $10,000. All the guitars you tried were nice bottom end instruments. Maybe the surprising thing would have been to hear a sizable difference.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by fazool

I agree 100% when this comes to acoustic guitars

I totally disagree when this is applied to electric guitars (where Steve Vai plays so I don't understand him making this statement).

The entire electric guitar industry is about getting (and chasing) different tones. There is no way your "fingers" can make a rockabilly sound or a clean jazz sound or a scorching death metal sound just by technique. Your fingers can't create delay, chorus, echo, reverb, flange, phase, fuzz, overdrive, etc.

Well I think it is both the guitar, equipment, and fingers, and true for electric or acoustic , because if you include feel , flavor, and style. in the definition of "tone"

Then:
Seems to me Mark Knopfler sounds like Knopfler, for the most part no matter what guitar he is playing electric or acoustic,
The video Guitar Stories is where I really noticed this .

[JERZEY]

Playing nylons in GC is a waste of time. They only carry pretty generic stuff. If you take notice the majority of those brands all use the same DD nylon strings too.

Sadly unlike steel strings the budget bracket for nylons stretches all the way up to 1.5k$$-ish honestly. Even at that price you dont get all that much. Go to any real nylon guitar parlor and the contrast between the different guitars is much more plentiful.

[jaymarsch]

I find that it is much easier to find a decent sounding steel string guitar at the price range that the OP mentions than it is to find an equivalent quality nylon string in that price range. Not saying it is not possible - just not as easy. To my ear, you begin the hear all what nylon brings to the table in a higher quality range. Caveat - it still depends on the builder.

Best,
Jayne

[jaan]

Originally Posted by JohnW63

Or, the under 1K nylon guitars that GC carries all sound the same. Don't waste your cash on the more costly ones !

It’s funny you say this. I found an inexpensive classical at a thrift shop for all of $19. I cleaned it up, set it up, and have been enjoying it as I haven’t had a classical in years. So I took it to GC, saying to myself that if I like this imagine how much I’d like a better one. And after playing all on the wall and A/B ing them I left with only my cheapy. I didn’t think they sounded any better, they all pretty much just sounded like the one I had......

[Naboz]

Oh Ralph, you had to bring in Anna Vidovic; exquisite in every way!
On the subject:
In many years of going to Elderly Instruments (40 mins away), it is very evident that there are so many atmospheric influences; humidity that day, the load of other guitars on the walls definitely influencing one's perception of the instrument being played, and the age and type of strings and how they work within your playing style.
I too have found little difference in classical guitars until I can get it home and become really familiar with it (my best experience with a classical was an old Yamaha with unknown strings found at a relative's house (it was at least 25 yrs. old)--I could play that thing all day, loving the subtle, sweet sound!

[whvick]

Originally Posted by PapaC

Let me be devil’s advocate here. If your playing is consistent from guitar to guitar, the tonal differences should have actually been more apparent.



Seriously though, everyone knows the sound is different in the front of the guitar is not the same as we hear, so if I’m trying an acoustic, I’ve found if I play closely facing a wall, I can get a closer sound to what others are hearing.



Anyway, interesting observation. I’ve never heard it that way before.

This is true. Makes me wonder why we don’t see more sound ports in the sides. My luthier says because you would have to support it structurally.

[zmf]

Originally Posted by JERZEY

Playing nylons in GC is a waste of time. They only carry pretty generic stuff. If you take notice the majority of those brands all use the same DD nylon strings too.

Sadly unlike steel strings the budget bracket for nylons stretches all the way up to 1.5k$$-ish honestly. Even at that price you dont get all that much. Go to any real nylon guitar parlor and the contrast between the different guitars is much more plentiful.

Interesting thread. I dabble in playing an old laminate classical, and am on the cusp of understanding how to play it, relative to a steel string.

How good to you have to be on nylon string to recognize the better qualities of high-end classicals? Does it pop out at you, or do you have to bring it out?

I ask because I haven't had a chance to play a good (+ $1K) classical.

[BallisticSquid]

Originally Posted by PapaC

Let me be devil’s advocate here. If your playing is consistent from guitar to guitar, the tonal differences should have actually been more apparent.

Seriously though, everyone knows the sound is different in the front of the guitar is not the same as we hear, so if I’m trying an acoustic, I’ve found if I play closely facing a wall, I can get a closer sound to what others are hearing.

Anyway, interesting observation. I’ve never heard it that way before.

That's a really good idea...can't say I've thought of that.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by PapaC

Seriously though, everyone knows the sound is different in the front of the guitar is not the same as we hear, so if I’m trying an acoustic, I’ve found if I play closely facing a wall, I can get a closer sound to what others are hearing.

Interesting but honestly and respectfully I think perhaps not really all that effective, because of two things, you may have not considered.

#1 (and this is admittedly subjective) for me what other's are hearing as per the specific guitars tonal difference is not all that relevant, because what I am hearing is what affects my playing, and what affects my plying will lead to how well I play, and playing my best is what I want others to hear.

#2 Perhaps more importantly and objectively, I think the laws of acoustic sound physics suggests that closely facing a wall will likely introduce more unrealistic reflection issues, not heard in the typical audience/performer positioning. Because depending exact room dimensions, doing that will simultaneously introduce unnatural buildup of some frequencies and cancelling or diminishing of others .. And will actually not be what the audience would hear (unless they were sitting against that particular wall in that particular room)
Also because in that "close to and facing the wall" position, different guitars have different frequency characteristics, so different guitars may sound uncharacteristically better or worse in any specific room . And the same guitar may sound better or worse in a different room.

I could be wrong BUT I am guessing any success you have had doing that , I think is more likely in spite of, as opposed because of the method

[Wade Hampton]

Jayne nailed it when she wrote:

Originally Posted by jaymarsch

I find that it is much easier to find a decent sounding steel string guitar at the price range that the OP mentions than it is to find an equivalent quality nylon string in that price range. Not saying it is not possible - just not as easy. To my ear, you begin the hear all what nylon brings to the table in a higher quality range. Caveat - it still depends on the builder.

Right. Most of the serious classical guitarists I know have guitars that were built either by custom guitar builders or else in small shop operations. Ramirez guitars are built in as close to a factory situation as professional quality classical guitars seem to get.

I'm not saying that factory-built nylon string guitars are no good; just the opposite. Every time I pick up and play a Yamaha classical I'm amazed by how good-sounding and consistent they are, even the lower priced ones.

But the serious classical guitarists mostly play handbuilts, at least those concertizing classical guitarists that I've had a chance to discuss it with.


whm

[tbeltrans]

Nylon string guitars, at least the really good ones, require some serious technique to get out of them what they are capable of. I can recall sitting in The Podium on Saturday mornings when various people came in and tried the classical guitars they carried. I could easily hear the difference between the average practiced fingerstyle player and the folks who came over from the University classical guitar program.

Nylon string guitars are capable of quite a wide range of nuances, given the developed technique to bring these nuances out. Also, the classical players seemed to be the equivalent of those Shakespearean actors who can really throw their voices with such clear enunciation to the back of a large room filled with people. Those not so trained seem almost anemic by comparison.

That is why, though I have a nice classical guitar, I tend to favor the steel string guitar where anybody can sound good with a reasonable amount of effort as compared to the herculean effort to do likewise on the classical guitar. It certainly takes a lot of attentive practice to really sound good on a steel string guitar, but we can all sound reasonably good at whatever stage we currently are. The nylon string classical guitar is really not that forgiving.


Tony

[TBman]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

Nylon string guitars, at least the really good ones, require some serious technique to get out of them what they are capable of. I can recall sitting in The Podium on Saturday mornings when various people came in and tried the classical guitars they carried. I could easily hear the difference between the average practiced fingerstyle player and the folks who came over from the University classical guitar program.

Nylon string guitars are capable of quite a wide range of nuances, given the developed technique to bring these nuances out. Also, the classical players seemed to be the equivalent of those Shakespearean actors who can really throw their voices with such clear enunciation to the back of a large room filled with people. Those not so trained seem almost anemic by comparison.

That is why, though I have a nice classical guitar, I tend to favor the steel string guitar where anybody can sound good with a reasonable amount of effort as compared to the herculean effort to do likewise on the classical guitar. It certainly takes a lot of attentive practice to really sound good on a steel string guitar, but we can all sound reasonably good at whatever stage we currently are. The nylon string classical guitar is really not that forgiving.


Tony

My guess is pushing through the strings and proper care and use of nails. Both of which I don't know nuttin about,