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  #1  
Old 02-03-2014, 05:06 PM
Christine1988 Christine1988 is offline
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Default String action

Well first off I should say I think I got my Cordoba C5 patched up. It's not pretty but I tuned it up to proper tuning and all is good so far. The patches didn't seem to effect the sound. Anyway I don't like the string action. Too high. Is it possible to lower the action without causing problems?
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  #2  
Old 02-03-2014, 06:16 PM
Peter Lovett Peter Lovett is offline
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The question is really whether the string action is too high at both the nut and 12th fret or only at one of them. If high at both ends then the nut and bridge can be shaved to lower the action, however, if it is high at only one end then lowering that end will also cause a lowering at the other end which will then make it too low.

You really need to take the guitar to an experienced luthier who can measure the action accurately and give you the appropriate advice.
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Old 02-03-2014, 11:51 PM
harpon harpon is offline
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Yes, it's almost always too high from the bridge-

Cordobas are a bit notorious for high action-
I pay attention- I broke two leftie fingers years ago, and like the action as low as I can get it-

If it's a new Cordoba, it probably has a truss rod- you have to tighten that clockwise to lower the relief and action- it's inside the sound hole under the fretboard

and you have to be very careful-

you may only get a part of a turn or maybe sometimes about a full turn- but don't try to force it all at once- I like to move the key back and forth, and creeping forward by small increments- it's almost never as much lowering as I like, and I've found that you can usually get more turning on another day, after it settles in- usually not as much as at first though- but probably more again at some future time.

you may want to consult a guitar book, or take it to a shop if you have the time and money

Cordobas usually don't have a tall bridge piece, but you can grind/ file that down too
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Old 02-04-2014, 08:44 AM
Acoustic Pain Acoustic Pain is offline
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Do consider that the "normal" is generally considered @12fret 4mm @6th string and 3mm @1st string. Many people just are not used to classical guitars and what is "proper". Yes 4mm/3mm is going to look extreme to an electric guitar player and even a steel string player.

I have a Cordoba came set up at about 3mm/2.5mm out of the box. That looked high as I am not used to the Nylon for a lot of years. Well I went out and spent $5 on a little measuring device for mechanics. Does 32's and 64's. And like I said they are not high. To go below 3mm on the low side is getting close to the realistic lowest you could get. And getting below 2mm on the high is close to the lowest so 3mm/2.5mm is just fine with me.

I just want you to have realistic expectations. This is an area where some do seem to have unrealistic expectations. You really should get a measurement.

I will agree with above poster on the truss rod adjustment I did have to adjust mine. Before someone reminds me that the truss rod is not for adjusting action. I know but if it is incorrectly adjusted you will have higher action when too much relief.

To OP also keep in mind assuming the nut is fine and you think your action is insanely high. If you want to drop 2mm @12 you will need to shave 4mm at Saddle? I doubt you have that kind of "slack". If the nut is fine and the neck relief is set correct one very real thing to also check is "neck angle". And if that is the case you will either be stuck getting used to high action or getting rid of that guitar. To check get a ruler, use as a straight edge. Mine is one foot. I set the edge on the frets and slide to the bridge holding so the ruler stays touching the frets. I want the ruler to make contact/land just about at the top of the bridgeplate. That would be correct "neck angle". If it lands in the middle I doubt you could ever get proper action with out serious professional help. That is because the angle is already going to improperly add 1.5mm/2mm height @12. So a little off hitting the top you can work with but the more it goes toward the middle of bridge or lower just too much for saddle to correct and I doubt even shaving bridge would do. If you have the bridgeplate like mine sanding is not an option.

Good luck. Do measure action to see if you do in fact even have a real problem before you go beyond checking nut and truss rod adjustment. When those are done decide how much lower you want the action @12, double it. That is what you need to remove, is there enough saddle material? Remember also the strings need a certain angle over the saddle from the backside to remain stable.
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  #5  
Old 02-04-2014, 11:56 AM
harpon harpon is offline
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Acoustic pain, are the measurements you're citing to the top or two the bottom of the strings?

when changing action- and I have several ukes and steel strings- I've done it more than I want to- I sometimes work in "string widths" because that is generally enough to feel some difference- I guess that would be roughly a imllimeter-

anyway I've been going through this with Cordobas myself recently- I got a 7/8 Dolce to "replace" my main full sized guitar (the Takamine i intend to nurse along) andI also have a Requinto 580 half size Cordoba guitar- I adjusted the truss rods in both- one turned rather easily and the other was stiffer- but I think the most I turned one was about a turn and the other a half turn and that made a difference on both,

Before I got the Requinto- I boought a used Cadete 3/4 size online from the Guitar Center- It was maybe the most beautiful guitar I ever had, - really great wood, and not a mark on it- but it was labled "Ano 08+ or year 2008- and no truss rod then- the action was high and I was at al oss to tell if it had bowed much or simply manufactured at a steep angle- a bit of both I think-

I cut the bridge piece down, and I was surprised that it made so little difference somehow- the relief was just more than I like, and the nut would've made even far less difference so I didn't bother, and opted for the 30 day return- I wished I didn't have to but would have never been satisfied with the relief if it had bowed anymore in the future.

and probably won't buy used on the net again- the price wasn't bad, but the ship was another $26 - and they graciously refunded that, But the ship runs the price up, and you just generally don;t know what your're getting- especially at GC where they just have one frontal picture and virtually no description.
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Old 02-04-2014, 01:15 PM
Tony Done Tony Done is offline
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Can we see some pics.

Like Acoustic Pain said, set up on a nylon is different from a steel string. I'm a long-time steel string player, and have them set up at about 1.7mm on the treble side. However, I have about 2.5-3mm treble side on the two nylons strings. It allows for greater string excursion, and the softer feel of nylon versus steel, plus the wider string spacing of nylon, make it feel OK once you get used to having to push the strings down a bit further.
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Old 02-04-2014, 03:25 PM
Acoustic Pain Acoustic Pain is offline
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harpoon I measure from the top of the 12fret to the bottom of string.

I am so happy my Cordoba has an adjustable truss rod. harpoon I have decided or learned in the last year or so from buying 11 guitars that checking the truss when you buy is a good idea. I had 2 that were froze or too stiff right out of the box. I could return them in the 1st 30 days so I did.
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  #8  
Old 02-04-2014, 05:01 PM
Christine1988 Christine1988 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acoustic Pain View Post
Do consider that the "normal" is generally considered @12fret 4mm @6th string and 3mm @1st string. Many people just are not used to classical guitars and what is "proper". Yes 4mm/3mm is going to look extreme to an electric guitar player and even a steel string player.

I have a Cordoba came set up at about 3mm/2.5mm out of the box. That looked high as I am not used to the Nylon for a lot of years. Well I went out and spent $5 on a little measuring device for mechanics. Does 32's and 64's. And like I said they are not high. To go below 3mm on the low side is getting close to the realistic lowest you could get. And getting below 2mm on the high is close to the lowest so 3mm/2.5mm is just fine with me.

I just want you to have realistic expectations. This is an area where some do seem to have unrealistic expectations. You really should get a measurement.

I will agree with above poster on the truss rod adjustment I did have to adjust mine. Before someone reminds me that the truss rod is not for adjusting action. I know but if it is incorrectly adjusted you will have higher action when too much relief.

To OP also keep in mind assuming the nut is fine and you think your action is insanely high. If you want to drop 2mm @12 you will need to shave 4mm at Saddle? I doubt you have that kind of "slack". If the nut is fine and the neck relief is set correct one very real thing to also check is "neck angle". And if that is the case you will either be stuck getting used to high action or getting rid of that guitar. To check get a ruler, use as a straight edge. Mine is one foot. I set the edge on the frets and slide to the bridge holding so the ruler stays touching the frets. I want the ruler to make contact/land just about at the top of the bridgeplate. That would be correct "neck angle". If it lands in the middle I doubt you could ever get proper action with out serious professional help. That is because the angle is already going to improperly add 1.5mm/2mm height @12. So a little off hitting the top you can work with but the more it goes toward the middle of bridge or lower just too much for saddle to correct and I doubt even shaving bridge would do. If you have the bridgeplate like mine sanding is not an option.

Good luck. Do measure action to see if you do in fact even have a real problem before you go beyond checking nut and truss rod adjustment. When those are done decide how much lower you want the action @12, double it. That is what you need to remove, is there enough saddle material? Remember also the strings need a certain angle over the saddle from the backside to remain stable.
I'm getting 5.5mm at the 12th fret and 4.5mm at the 6th fret. It's really high as compare to other classical guitars I tried. I'll check the neck bow next.

Added: I measured between the bottom of the string and the top of the fret.
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Old 02-04-2014, 05:14 PM
Christine1988 Christine1988 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acoustic Pain View Post
Do consider that the "normal" is generally considered @12fret 4mm @6th string and 3mm @1st string. Many people just are not used to classical guitars and what is "proper". Yes 4mm/3mm is going to look extreme to an electric guitar player and even a steel string player.

I have a Cordoba came set up at about 3mm/2.5mm out of the box. That looked high as I am not used to the Nylon for a lot of years. Well I went out and spent $5 on a little measuring device for mechanics. Does 32's and 64's. And like I said they are not high. To go below 3mm on the low side is getting close to the realistic lowest you could get. And getting below 2mm on the high is close to the lowest so 3mm/2.5mm is just fine with me.

I just want you to have realistic expectations. This is an area where some do seem to have unrealistic expectations. You really should get a measurement.

I will agree with above poster on the truss rod adjustment I did have to adjust mine. Before someone reminds me that the truss rod is not for adjusting action. I know but if it is incorrectly adjusted you will have higher action when too much relief.

To OP also keep in mind assuming the nut is fine and you think your action is insanely high. If you want to drop 2mm @12 you will need to shave 4mm at Saddle? I doubt you have that kind of "slack". If the nut is fine and the neck relief is set correct one very real thing to also check is "neck angle". And if that is the case you will either be stuck getting used to high action or getting rid of that guitar. To check get a ruler, use as a straight edge. Mine is one foot. I set the edge on the frets and slide to the bridge holding so the ruler stays touching the frets. I want the ruler to make contact/land just about at the top of the bridgeplate. That would be correct "neck angle". If it lands in the middle I doubt you could ever get proper action with out serious professional help. That is because the angle is already going to improperly add 1.5mm/2mm height @12. So a little off hitting the top you can work with but the more it goes toward the middle of bridge or lower just too much for saddle to correct and I doubt even shaving bridge would do. If you have the bridgeplate like mine sanding is not an option.

Good luck. Do measure action to see if you do in fact even have a real problem before you go beyond checking nut and truss rod adjustment. When those are done decide how much lower you want the action @12, double it. That is what you need to remove, is there enough saddle material? Remember also the strings need a certain angle over the saddle from the backside to remain stable.
What is the bridge plate?
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Old 02-04-2014, 09:12 PM
harpon harpon is offline
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Not sure what he means by bridgeplate either.

So I took measuremenrts on my guitars

the Cordoba Dolce 7/8 measures about 4 now at 12 on bass string-
after truss adjustment (been meaning to make 2nd attempt)
and some very slight bridge bone filing
and less on trebles

and the Cordoba Requinto 580 is more like 3.5 mm at 12/ bass
after truss adjustment and no other bridge filing yet

they are fairly acceptable, but I want them just a bit lower-
not really motivating-
Shorts scales have less tension and come equipped with hard tension strings- if the action is high and difficult, going to normal strings is an option then too.
I adjusted a lot of instruments over the holidays!

my full size Takamine- a dozen years old and no truss rod-
is also about 4mm at 12/bass string-
and bridge bones is almost maxed low- about 1mm over bridge wood

there is also filing away of the saddle top, and grooving the bone deeper
but that's only in last stages of an axe's life
and heat bends, etc.

so that's how it goes-
good discussion
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Old 02-04-2014, 10:47 PM
rina1504 rina1504 is offline
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Christine,

I think Acoustic Pain is referring to the bridge itself as the "bridge plate" although bridge plate is a term I hear more commonly used in solid-body guitar talk. Following his directions, where the straight edge would meet the bridge when measured from the fretboard, right before the saddle.

Also, you might want to get a spare saddle and do the modifications on that. Leave the original alone so if you ever want to get it back to it's original state, you'll have no problem doing so. (I made this mistake on my Aparicio AA30)

The action can be a bit high on classicals for steel string players, but once you play for quite some time and develop your right hand technique, your preferences for action height might change slightly and you might want to raise it back up. Good luck!
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Old 02-05-2014, 01:02 AM
Acoustic Pain Acoustic Pain is offline
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I am sorry in my attempt to be precise I actually was not clear, maybe even incorrect? When I said bridgeplate I mean the wooden part of the "bridge". I was trying to make it clear vs the "saddle". But likely I should correctly call the wood piece the "bridge" and the plastic the "saddle".

rina yea you are correct in what I was trying to say. And your observation about being careful to not "over" sand/shave the saddle is good advice. I have done that myself. And while I can "shim" I really like to try avoid that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christine1988 View Post
I'm getting 5.5mm at the 12th fret and 4.5mm at the 6th fret. It's really high as compare to other classical guitars I tried. I'll check the neck bow next.

Added: I measured between the bottom of the string and the top of the fret.
Just to be clear you mean the bass side string height is 5.5mm and the treble side is 4.5mm? Not the 6th fret?

OK if your measurements are good which I guess they are. Also you mention that the action is higher than others which I do trust. I hope the truss rod adjustment helps to get it a little better before sanding.

Do you know how to check the "relief" or bend of the neck? If you don't here is what I do. I always "eyeball" it to get a general idea. Looking from the headstock down the fretboard toward the bottom of the instrument on both the bass and treble side. I also look from the bottom/end toward the headstock. I should not really see much if any curve. Remember this is to get a "general" idea. I even look at each side with different eyes at the same time to see if "real" warrpage from side to side. Truss can't really fix "true" warp.

Now the real way to check/test, you can even ignore above I just like to do it that way. Capo the 1st fret, press the 12th fret down as if you were playing the note. Either measure the fret to string distance which I never do. I just tap the string over the 7th fret. Does it move? Is there play/slop? Generally most think there should be a very tiny amount. I know that sounds real scientific.

Like I said I don't measure I know by feel. I think I read you should be able to slide a piece of copy paper with little extra room. I actually basically adjust truss so I get no movement when I tap (be careful not to go beyond the "zero" point, you wont get movement/slop but it will not help with getting low action (buzz)). At the zero point if I wanted relief I would back off with say a 1/4 turn on the truss rod. That will give you the same as all the fancy measurement others will tell you. At this point your truss is correct and will not give you any more help on the action. You do want to play the guitar and make sure no "buzz" issues. I doubt at this point you would have.

I myself as an opinion have zero relief on some of my necks. This is likely not important to you at this time. Zero relief will give the lower action but it can create buzz. So if a little relief allows lower action "without" buzz that is best. I guess my point is to much relief has a negative impact on action. No relief can prevent you from getting the action as low as possible without buzz. At some point if with the correct relief you get buzz and/or dead frets you start looking at fret dressing. You are not there yet so I am ahead of myself.

No capo? I finger the 1st fret with left hand. With right hand use pinky to depress 12th fret and tap 7th fret with my thumb. To be honest I never use a capo myself for this.

Good luck. I really hope the truss rod helps because at 5.5mm sanding/shaving 3mm off the saddle just to get to 4mm seems like a lot?
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  #13  
Old 02-05-2014, 12:31 PM
rina1504 rina1504 is offline
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Acoustic Pain,

Sounds like you're on the right track and giving the best advice, because shaving off 3mm is too much! The neck relief has got to be on of the main culprits here. Not surprising since the guitar was mishandled after all before Christine bought it.

I find Cordoba's to usually have decent action, pretty close to standard at 4mm and 3mm, plus they always have enough saddle to shave down.

The last drastic measure might be to trim inside the saddle hole itself if none of these prove to lower the action as harpon suggested?
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Old 02-05-2014, 02:20 PM
Christine1988 Christine1988 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acoustic Pain View Post
I am sorry in my attempt to be precise I actually was not clear, maybe even incorrect? When I said bridgeplate I mean the wooden part of the "bridge". I was trying to make it clear vs the "saddle". But likely I should correctly call the wood piece the "bridge" and the plastic the "saddle".

rina yea you are correct in what I was trying to say. And your observation about being careful to not "over" sand/shave the saddle is good advice. I have done that myself. And while I can "shim" I really like to try avoid that.

Just to be clear you mean the bass side string height is 5.5mm and the treble side is 4.5mm? Not the 6th fret?

OK if your measurements are good which I guess they are. Also you mention that the action is higher than others which I do trust. I hope the truss rod adjustment helps to get it a little better before sanding.

Do you know how to check the "relief" or bend of the neck? If you don't here is what I do. I always "eyeball" it to get a general idea. Looking from the headstock down the fretboard toward the bottom of the instrument on both the bass and treble side. I also look from the bottom/end toward the headstock. I should not really see much if any curve. Remember this is to get a "general" idea. I even look at each side with different eyes at the same time to see if "real" warrpage from side to side. Truss can't really fix "true" warp.

Now the real way to check/test, you can even ignore above I just like to do it that way. Capo the 1st fret, press the 12th fret down as if you were playing the note. Either measure the fret to string distance which I never do. I just tap the string over the 7th fret. Does it move? Is there play/slop? Generally most think there should be a very tiny amount. I know that sounds real scientific.

Like I said I don't measure I know by feel. I think I read you should be able to slide a piece of copy paper with little extra room. I actually basically adjust truss so I get no movement when I tap (be careful not to go beyond the "zero" point, you wont get movement/slop but it will not help with getting low action (buzz)). At the zero point if I wanted relief I would back off with say a 1/4 turn on the truss rod. That will give you the same as all the fancy measurement others will tell you. At this point your truss is correct and will not give you any more help on the action. You do want to play the guitar and make sure no "buzz" issues. I doubt at this point you would have.

I myself as an opinion have zero relief on some of my necks. This is likely not important to you at this time. Zero relief will give the lower action but it can create buzz. So if a little relief allows lower action "without" buzz that is best. I guess my point is to much relief has a negative impact on action. No relief can prevent you from getting the action as low as possible without buzz. At some point if with the correct relief you get buzz and/or dead frets you start looking at fret dressing. You are not there yet so I am ahead of myself.

No capo? I finger the 1st fret with left hand. With right hand use pinky to depress 12th fret and tap 7th fret with my thumb. To be honest I never use a capo myself for this.

Good luck. I really hope the truss rod helps because at 5.5mm sanding/shaving 3mm off the saddle just to get to 4mm seems like a lot?
5.5mm at the 12th bass string 4.5mm at the 6th bass string. Looks like about the same at the treble just eyeing though.
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  #15  
Old 02-05-2014, 02:30 PM
Acoustic Pain Acoustic Pain is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christine1988 View Post
5.5mm at the 12th bass string 4.5mm at the 6th bass string. Looks like about the same at the treble just eyeing though.
OK I understand now. Cool the 12th is all I really need to know. Do have a look at the neck relief I hope that gives improvement. If it gives enough maybe sanding the saddle could be an option and get things to an acceptable height.
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