Lowden O23 recorded with Sony PCM-D50, honky sound?

[frankhond]

moon: The lowcut filter is off, I never use it (doublechecked just nowto be sure the switch wasn't accidentally flipped). Also the limiter is off.

rick-slo: There is indeed a capo, but on the second fret. Since you are hearing "capo fifth fret" and moon hears "small guitar"... there is a problem with the recording. Although I agree that the sound is perfectly usable in some contexts, and can be worked with as Doug has proved.

Fran: Could be worth a try to swing the mics outward. But wouldn't this only create another xy configuration? They are still pretty close together.

Doug: thanks for the detailed info. I will try to recreate this inside whatever Logic has to offer.

Tell me one thing guys, which of the two sounds I posted so far do you prefer? Or Dougs remix?

I will make a third recording tomorrow trying some other mic position and swinging the mics outward. I suspect I'll get a third usable sound...

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by frankhond

Fran: Could be worth a try to swing the mics outward. But wouldn't this only create another xy configuration? They are still pretty close together.

I don't mean to denigrate X/Y, it's a perfectly fine configuration. But trying others might be worthwhile. I don't know your recorder, but trying whatever alternate setups it has might give you something you like (or not!)

Doug: thanks for the detailed info. I will try to recreate this inside whatever Logic has to offer.

I also used Logic, but I tend to use 3rd party plugins.

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by frankhond

...

Fran: Could be worth a try to swing the mics outward. But wouldn't this only create another xy configuration? They are still pretty close together.
...

The conventional XY has a very specific meaning and technical result. It involves placing the capsules at 90 degree angles, 45 degrees to source, with the diaphragms as closely aligned as possible. The result is a stereo image based on intensity difference only, with no time difference component. The result has been described as "precise" but also as "boring." The XY configuration on the PCM-D50 is a bit compromised, there was no effort to align the capsules the final 1/2 inch or so, and the placement of the mics appears to have a risk of interference between them.



As you move the mic capsules apart you enter into a new way of capturing stereo. The distance between the mics allows time difference to be detected and the result seems to be preferred by many. The tradeoff is often described as more spacious but less precise. As you say, the distance in this case is small, but the source is also small as is the mic distance.

And the cost of the experiment is very low.

Fran

[Scott Whigham]

My, my, my - that mix Doug posted is just dripping with beauty. Great playing - I'd love to hear more of that - both the playing, the composition, and the sound. I tried downloading the original just to compare but I think I'm late to the party - it wouldn't download. Kudos to all I just enjoy reading, listening, and learning in threads like this.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by frankhond

rick-slo: There is indeed a capo, but on the second fret. Since you are hearing "capo fifth fret" and moon hears "small guitar"... there is a problem with the recording.

Not really. A capo and no notes pitched lower than the fifth fret of the sixth string changes the things quite a bit regarding perception of guitar size. Try recording for us a tune without using a capo and using more lower pitched notes.
In any case using some reverb most always improves the sound.

[frankhond]

Originally Posted by Scott Whigham

My, my, my - that mix Doug posted is just dripping with beauty. Great playing - I'd love to hear more of that - both the playing, the composition, and the sound. I tried downloading the original just to compare but I think I'm late to the party - it wouldn't download. Kudos to all I just enjoy reading, listening, and learning in threads like this.

The originals are still up and should download fine, I just tested the mp3's to be sure. Are you behind a firewall or some other obstruction?

Here are the mp3 links again.

The original recording: http://www.mateuszherczka.net/guitar/DonalOgg.mp3
My second recording with different strings (woodier sound) and mic elevated about 50cm (about level with my shoulder): http://www.mateuszherczka.net/guitar/DonalOgg2.mp3

rick-slo: I will record a tune in standard tuning that uses more of the fretboard. I just have to get some of that christmas stuff done, so hopefully tonight (European time).

[billv]

Couple of thoughts:

1. The Sony unit is a fine device, however, I think you might be running into the intrinsic sound/limits of what it does. I have a Zoom H4, and notice that it tends to have a characteristic sound to what it records.

2. If you were running a pair of SDC mics into a dedicated mic preamp, you would probably notice quite a bit of difference. Martin and Pierre are using way more high-end equipment when they record, and it makes a difference.

3. Doug's processing of your clip is great, and shows that even with limited equipment, you can get a very nice recording.

4. The recording captures the sound of a O23 capoed on the fifth fret. I've played 'em a lot, and that's a Lowden! My O35 sounds fairly different, but it has a spruce top.

5. The "boxy" sound is also apparent on Martin Simpson's recordings. Listen to (for example) "Polly on the Shore" on "The Bramble Briar", and then to Doug's mix of yours. Interesting the similarities, even though he is playing a Sobell with a spruce top. May have something to do with mic positioning.

[Scott Whigham]

Originally Posted by frankhond

The originals are still up and should download fine, I just tested the mp3's to be sure. Are you behind a firewall or some other obstruction?

Here are the mp3 links again.

The original recording: http://www.mateuszherczka.net/guitar/DonalOgg.mp3
My second recording with different strings (woodier sound) and mic elevated about 50cm (about level with my shoulder): http://www.mateuszherczka.net/guitar/DonalOgg2.mp3

rick-slo: I will record a tune in standard tuning that uses more of the fretboard. I just have to get some of that christmas stuff done, so hopefully tonight (European time).

I'm still getting errors - just now I received "The connection has timed out. The server at www.mateuszherczka.net is taking too long to respond." I don't have a firewall that is blocking me so I don't know what the problem is.

I received this one earlier:



Maybe we're just in different parts of the world and it's timing out. I don't know. Thanks though.

[Doug Young]

Working fine for me, starts playing in a few seconds. Maybe try a different browser?

[Scott Whigham]

Weird - still nada. It's as though my IP is blocked by a firewall on their end.

[Ty Ford]

Frank,

What monitors are you using? I'm only listening on the Macbook at the moment, but your first mp3 has a nice dry sound. A little honk, maybe, but as someone mentioned that's how those guitars sound.

Get someone else to play it while you stand in front of your own guitar and see what that sounds like. Be prepared to be surprised. While you're there, stick a finger in one ear and, at about 2-3 feet out, move your head around listening with the other ear. Acoustic guitars project lobes of sound from different parts of the face. See if you can find one of those lobes that you like and put your mics there.

I do like the second pair of strings better.

The D50: You're throwing $500 at the project for mics and recorder. The mics I use cost almost $2k today. They were a lot cheaper when I bought 'em.

The good news is you are starting to hear the difference that gear can make. The bad news is that you're starting to hear the difference good gear can make.

Nice playing and please don't beat yourself up.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[frankhond]

Ty, thanks for your feedback! I'm learning a lot so definitely not being hard on myself. I dont have pro monitoring, so I'm listening on AKG240 headphones and my hifi - an orelle amp and pretty good dynaudio speakers. I can at least compare the sound with some albums I like.

I was planning to record something more but now is christmas and kids running around so this has to wait a couple days. I'm curious to try some different mic positions, and recreate the original placement. Suspect that proximity to floor created the excess honk... Back as soon as I can!

[frankhond]

In the meantime, a local is selling a matched pair of used AKG451b at an ok price. Could these be a good budget option? I know the other suggestions that pop up here, octava, adk6, schoeps etc. i cant afford schoeps, what about the 451b? Or should I get something else?

[Ty Ford]

Frank,

After determining via the finger in ear test that your guitar really doesn't sound that way out front, my thought would be to try one Audix SCX-1HC

It's the scheopsiest sounding non-scheops I've come across. Not fully there, but a better choice than what you mention.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[frankhond]

Interesting - had no idea about this one. Any particular reason you recommend the hypercardioid over regular cardioid (I can imagine it maybe does better in a crappy living room)? I suppose one needs two of these?