Multi-Mic demo, spaced pairs+mid mic on solo guitar

[Doug Young]

Victor (Knives&Guitars) asked a few days ago if I could post a demo of solo guitar using a mid mic with spaced pairs, something I frequently do. Not sure how many people would care, but in case anyone else is interested, here's 2 short examples. I'm always curious what others do with multi-mics, there are some interesting photos floating around of some guitarists in the studio with as many as 8 mics. Anyway, here's some examples of what I've tried:

Example 1:

First up, especially for those who have asked for "cheap mics" in demos, here's an example with a pair of AT2020s (I paid $60 each for these) as spaced pairs, and an AT4033 ($400 new, sorry, next cheapest mic I have) in the middle.

First, here's the AT2020's alone, stereo, spaced pairs, about 18 inches apart, 8-10 inches from the guitar:



Next, I mixed in the AT4033, which was placed dead center between the 2, about at the soundhole, but raised so as to not be pointed into the soundhole. The 4033 is mixed in about 6db lower that the 2020s. The 2020's are panned hard left and right, the 4033 is centered in the mix.



An important step in using mics like this is to be sure they are phase aligned. I use the Auto-Align plugin. If I'm able, I can use it during setup to find a mic placement where the mics are in phase. In this case, I was recording to a portable recorder in a spare (untreated BTW) bedroom, with no computer, so I used Auto-Align to adjust afterwards. It needed to shift the 4033 by 0.17ms in this case.

Note that other than the 4033 being quieter than the 2020s, and being overall a "better" mic, these mics are pretty similar sound-wise, so the only real impact is that I'm filling in the middle of the stereo image, effectively reducing the width. This may or may not be desirable. Here, I prefer the 2020s alone, myself.


Example 2:

For a 2nd example, here's what I often really use for solo studio recordings. A spaced pair of condensers (Schoeps CMC6/MK41s in this case) and a ribbon (AEA R88) mic in the middle. I have the stereo ribbon mic in MS mode, and positioned to that the mid mic is centered over the soundhole, but above the waist of the guitar, while the side mic sort of spans the soundhole, with the null aimed at the soundhole.

Here's the Schoeps alone in spaced pairs:



The Schoeps here are a bit wider than I'd normally do, about 22 inches, and between that and perhaps the Koa guitar I'm using, this sounds a bit boxy to me, and slightly harsh, with a "hole in the middle". But the idea is that these provide a wide image, that will mesh well both image-wise and tonally with the darker and more centered R88 ribbon mic. If I was just going to the use the Schoeps alone, I'd focus on getting a different sound here, probably bring the mics closer together. But since this is a demo, I exaggerated the spacing a bit.

Using the R88 in MS gives me a lot of flexibility, I can use it as a single mono center mic, or use it as stereo, just by settings on the MS decoder. This is a very deep, dark-sounding mic. Here's how it sounds alone, in stereo:



So now, the trick is to combine these. Again, I've used Auto-Align to make sure they're in phase reasonably, and it tells me it needs to adjust by 0.23ms.

But I have lots of ways I can combine these. For starters, I can mix the R88 in in stereo or mono, and of course vary the levels of each mic. Here's one example, with the Schoeps carrying the main load and the R88, in stereo, being added in 6db lower than the Schoeps (the options are infinite of course):



Or I could do the opposite, I could decide to make the R88 sound be the most prominent, put it at full volume, and mix in the Schoeps just enough to bring in more highs, detail, and wider image. Here's an example of that, with the R88 in stereo at full volume, while the Schoeps are mixed in at about 5db lower:




Anyway, that's the idea. I usually record with at least the ribbon + a pair of condensers, sometimes 2 pair. Then in the mix, I have lots of choices, anything from just one pair, just the ribbon mic, or some combination. Often I end up with just a touch of the ribbon mic (less than I'm using here). I can blend the mics together to adjust both the stereo image and the tone according to what sounds good to me at the moment. Of course, you can also EQ or otherwise process each mic separately, so there are lots of options.

[AcousticDreams]

As always, amazing comparison recordings! Really lets us see the world of possibilities with multiple mic set ups.

I can definitely hear how using two mic set ups like this might offer some enhancements both for spacial , tonal and definition. I am now looking forward to exploring multi mics setups. The Characteristics of High end Mics vary. All are good. So combining different manufacturers might offer the best of different worlds. I do like what the Ribbon offers in combination with the Schoeps.

May we talk a little bit about your Auto Align? This plug in lets you see the phase differences, and then lets you correct it by adding or subtracting delay In milliseconds? I assume that when you say shift, it is the same thing as delay?

And what difference do you personally hear between the shifted and unshifted pairs?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

[INDENT]

May we talk a little bit about your Auto Align? This plug in lets you see the phase differences, and then lets you correct it by adding or subtracting delay In milliseconds? I assume that when you say shift, it is the same thing as delay?

Yes, it just delays. It appears to be trying to compute the delay between two sources and then automatically adds a +/- time shift to compensate. You can also use it as a setup/learning tool. So here, it told me the center mic was around 2 inches closer to the guitar, sonically speaking. I could just use that info to try to reposition the mic. Or let the tool do it. It's automatic, you just click a button, it compares 2 sources, and adds the delay. This tool seems to have been designed for drums, where there are constant multi-micing/bleed/phase shift issues, as the high hat mic bleeds into the snare mic, into the toms, etc.

And what difference do you personally hear between the shifted and unshifted pairs?

in these 2 examples, it made virtually no audible difference. If I'm further off in placement, it can be pretty dramatic. Two mics (or mic sets) that are out of phase will cancel various frequencies. What I expect when adding in more mics is that the sound gets bigger and fuller. If they're sufficiently out of phase, the sound can actually get thinner and quieter as I mix another source in. In that case, pop the AutoAlign plugin on, tell it to do its thing, and you hear the sound go from thin and small to big and fat instantly. It can be night and day if there's a problem to start with, inaudible if everything is reasonably right to start with. I try to get things right to start with, then double check/fine tune with the plugin.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Yes, it just delays. It appears to be trying to compute the delay between two sources and then automatically adds a +/- time shift to compensate. You can also use it as a setup/learning tool. So here, it told me the center mic was around 2 inches closer to the guitar, sonically speaking. I could just use that info to try to reposition the mic. Or let the tool do it. It's automatic, you just click a button, it compares 2 sources, and adds the delay. This tool seems to have been designed for drums, where there are constant multi-micing/bleed/phase shift issues, as the high hat mic bleeds into the snare mic, into the toms, etc.



in these 2 examples, it made virtually no audible difference. If I'm further off in placement, it can be pretty dramatic. Two mics (or mic sets) that are out of phase will cancel various frequencies. What I expect when adding in more mics is that the sound gets bigger and fuller. If they're sufficiently out of phase, the sound can actually get thinner and quieter as I mix another source in. In that case, pop the AutoAlign plugin on, tell it to do its thing, and you hear the sound go from thin and small to big and fat instantly. It can be night and day if there's a problem to start with, inaudible if everything is reasonably right to start with. I try to get things right to start with, then double check/fine tune with the plugin.

Hi Doug
I understand how that's useful for guitarists who sit still while playing.

My issues sometimes stem from guitarists who move around a lot while playing. I often resorted to just doing mono recordings, and often found they seemed to be 'pivoting' around a spot near the neck/body joint, so I'd mic the joint and from 18".

I found it hard to get consistent results when using A/B mic (one at neck/body the other behind the bridge). I did find moderate success doing omni pattern versus cardioid. It eliminated any proximity shift, and tended to be more forgiving.

It wasn't so much an issue for rhythm players (they weren't prominent in the overall mix), but for soloists or lead players where guitar parts are on display and up-front in the mix.

Would Auto-align help in stereo mic situations where the main player is moving a lot?

[jklotz]

Wow! Thanks for posting that Doug. That is very interesting and timely for me. I've been wanting to experiment with either a ribbon or tube mic along with my KM 184's and play with some M/S stuff.

In my case, unfortunately it's a bit of a hurdle to jump, as my apollo interface only has 2 inputs. So it would mean getting a mic that can do figure 8 and additional channels to add to my interface, along with more cables and stands. Jeez, it never ends!

I saw several auto align plugins out there. Which one are you using?

Those AT's were a bit of a surprise. While they are a little bright and harsh in the top end for my taste, they were still way better than I thought they would be. I could hear a difference with the higher end stuff, but price wise, that'd be a pretty big jump. I can see why those might be a great alternative for someone wanting to do it on a budget.

[SprintBob]

I did a first listen and to start with, all of Doug's playing is superb so any of his recordings will sound wonderful even with entry level mics.

All of the Schoeps and AEA combos sound great to me, not one is really better than another. It really comes down to what your preference in listening can be. But what amazed me is how good the R88 sounds on its own. That is sure brewing a bout of MAS in me!

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

.

Would Auto-align help in stereo mic situations where the main player is moving a lot?

No, it's a constant timing adjustment based on an average. The only thing I know of that will handle your case is iZotope RX (tho there may be others). It has an "Azimuth" process that centers and phase aligns dynamically. I've tried it a few time, and it might fix your case, tho I seem to recall that it could sometimes introduce issues of its own as it tries to correct.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by jklotz

I saw several auto align plugins out there. Which one are you using?
.

Im using SoundRadix Auto-Align

https://www.soundradix.com/products/auto-align/

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by SprintBob

But what amazed me is how good the R88 sounds on its own. That is sure brewing a bout of MAS in me!

It's a really interesting mic. Huge, for one thing... A bit noisy, as it requires massive gain, at least for quiet sources like guitar, and also quite dark. I'm running it thru an AEA RPQ preamp with shelving EQ that already has a bass cut and treble boost on the way it. If you haven't seen these, check out the OneMic series of videos, all done with a single R88:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGQ...y2ZqIXABrAD__g

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

No, it's a constant timing adjustment based on an average. The only thing I know of that will handle your case is iZotope RX (tho there may be others). It has an "Azimuth" process that centers and phase aligns dynamically. I've tried it a few time, and it might fix your case, tho I seem to recall that it could sometimes introduce issues of its own as it tries to correct.

Hi Doug
Thank you for the response and into.

[KevWind]

Very interesting Doug thanks
One quick question about the Auto Align when using a spaced pair and a third middle mic . What is you actual configuration ?
Do you have the spaced pair on one stereo track with a Stereo Auto Align and the mid mic on a mono and a mono Auto Align on it ?
Or are you just using one side of the pair in as a mono track and the mid mic in mono ?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Very interesting Doug thanks
One quick question about the Auto Align when using a spaced pair and a third middle mic . What is you actual configuration ?
Do you have the spaced pair on one stereo track with a Stereo Auto Align and the mid mic on a mono and a mono Auto Align on it ?
Or are you just using one side of the pair in as a mono track and the mid mic in mono ?

Yes you put one AutoAlign plugin on each track. It doesn't care if the track is mono or stereo. I pick the spaced pair track (which for me was a single stereo track) as the reference track by telling that plugin instance to "send", and then a 2nd instance on the mid mic track is set to "receive". Then you play a bit, and the plugin computes the timing difference and applies a correction. You can also manually override the correction it computes, basically treating the plugin like a sample-delay. You can actually align multiple tracks. Like say I have 6 mic tracks, and 2 pickup tracks. Put AutoAlign instances on all 8 tracks, pick one as the reference, and have the other 7 sync to that. Any of the tracks could be mono or stereo. The plugin also supports "channels", or groups, so you can synch different collections of things in a mix individually.

I have seen someone use AutoAlign on the 2 mics in a spaced pair setup, when they were recorded to separate mono tracks. That doesn't make sense to me, since the way spaced pairs work is to have phase differences - so I would not want to eliminate those. But I guess any manipulation is fair game if the result sounds good, and maybe it would correct for a poor spaced pair placement, I'll have to give that a try and see how it works.

[jim1960]

This video does a pretty good job of showing what Auto-Align can do. It's an amazing plugin and it's very easy to use.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Yes you put one AutoAlign plugin on each track. It doesn't care if the track is mono or stereo. I pick the spaced pair track (which for me was a single stereo track) as the reference track by telling that plugin instance to "send", and then a 2nd instance on the mid mic track is set to "receive". Then you play a bit, and the plugin computes the timing difference and applies a correction. You can also manually override the correction it computes, basically treating the plugin like a sample-delay. You can actually align multiple tracks. Like say I have 6 mic tracks, and 2 pickup tracks. Put AutoAlign instances on all 8 tracks, pick one as the reference, and have the other 7 sync to that. Any of the tracks could be mono or stereo. The plugin also supports "channels", or groups, so you can synch different collections of things in a mix individually.

I have seen someone use AutoAlign on the 2 mics in a spaced pair setup, when they were recorded to separate mono tracks. That doesn't make sense to me, since the way spaced pairs work is to have phase differences - so I would not want to eliminate those. But I guess any manipulation is fair game if the result sounds good, and maybe it would correct for a poor spaced pair placement, I'll have to give that a try and see how it works.

Thanks Doug so it is send and receive situation Makes sense
Also thanks Jim I will check out the video

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Thanks Doug so it is send and receive situation Makes sense

Just during the analysis/training phase. After that's it's just a delay