The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 12-22-2021, 08:58 AM
fpuhan fpuhan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Northern Virginia, USA
Posts: 1,319
Default Help Me Over the Hump?

Greetings fellow guitarists!

I'm a long-time player but have never ventured into the world of amplification/microphones. A couple of years ago I bought the Apogee ONE product for use with my Mac/iPad, and it sits in its box today. Ventures into Garageband and iMovie have produced disappointing results. And I thought perhaps I just didn't need to go down that path.

Until now.

The venue I've been playing live last night decided to "go dark" for the unforeseeable future because of COVID. They have decided to move to Zoom and/or YouTube. If I want to join them, I will now have to be able to play with sufficient quality to be listenable. I doubt I will ever move into recording (but never say never...).

The sheer immensity of information regarding microphones and sound technology always sends me shuddering away. How can one possibly choose? Especially in this day and age of "doing everything at home?"

Can I just get a single microphone that I can plug into my MacBook Pro (I guess that means USB) and project my guitar and voice over the ether? And nothing TOO expensive (<US$350). Including boom or stand.

LDC, SDC, dynamic, cardioid, and such just start making my eyes cross. I don't want another degree, I just want a mic!

Am I asking too much?
__________________
I own 41 guitars. Most are made of wood. Some are not.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-22-2021, 09:44 AM
KevWind's Avatar
KevWind KevWind is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Edge of Wilderness Wyoming
Posts: 19,884
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fpuhan View Post
Greetings fellow guitarists!

I'm a long-time player but have never ventured into the world of amplification/microphones. A couple of years ago I bought the Apogee ONE product for use with my Mac/iPad, and it sits in its box today. Ventures into Garageband and iMovie have produced disappointing results. And I thought perhaps I just didn't need to go down that path.

Until now.

The venue I've been playing live last night decided to "go dark" for the unforeseeable future because of COVID. They have decided to move to Zoom and/or YouTube. If I want to join them, I will now have to be able to play with sufficient quality to be listenable. I doubt I will ever move into recording (but never say never...).

The sheer immensity of information regarding microphones and sound technology always sends me shuddering away. How can one possibly choose? Especially in this day and age of "doing everything at home?"

Can I just get a single microphone that I can plug into my MacBook Pro (I guess that means USB) and project my guitar and voice over the ether? And nothing TOO expensive (<US$350). Including boom or stand.

LDC, SDC, dynamic, cardioid, and such just start making my eyes cross. I don't want another degree, I just want a mic!

Am I asking too much?
In reverse order

Am I asking too much? the truthful answer is = Absolutely not, Maybe, Maybe not, and Definitely yes...

It depends entirely on how (You) approach it


Absolutely not : literally thousands of people get into the world of home recording every year (which is essentially what we are talking about for a music performance in a Zoom meeting) .

Maybe, Maybe not : Only you can determine the amount of effort you are willing to commit to learning the basics

Definitely yes : if you mistakenly cling to this notion and can't change this perspective "I don't want another degree, I just want a mic!"


To be brutally honest :::If your not willing to take the time and make the effort to get at least lets call it "a grade school level education in recording, mics and amplification" then most likely your experience in participating as a performer in a Zoom meeting will be as disappointing as your GB and iMovie experience .

With all that said IMO learning to record yields benefits beyond just learning recording, it can be especially beneficial in becoming better at playing.

Me ? I would just use the Apogee One. It already is an onboard mic AND has better conversion and mic pre's than a cheap USB mic
Start with the onboard mic and see how it goes



Also it was not quite clear if have a Mac and an iPad or do you mean just an iPad ?

If you have a Mac computer I would use it . It will be easier to setup Zoom

Me , I would get the Apogee One Break Out Cable and then perhaps think about spending the rest of that $350 on an LDC condenser mic
__________________
Enjoy the Journey.... Kev...

KevWind at Soundcloud

KevWind at YouYube
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD

System :
Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1

Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Ventura 12.2.1

Last edited by KevWind; 12-22-2021 at 11:37 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-22-2021, 01:14 PM
fpuhan fpuhan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Northern Virginia, USA
Posts: 1,319
Default

Thank you, @KeyWind. I don't mind brutal honesty. In fact, I probably needed the slap in the face! To that end, I have been spending a lot of time reading and researching (don't tell my employer -- I'm supposed to be doing other work).

Your point about the Apogee ONE is well taken. Yes, I have a Mac (several, in fact). I just downloaded their latest installer and documentation, as what I have is about three years old. Since I already have it, I can probably connect it to Garageband or similar that I also have.

My focus has been primarily on the mic. I did come across some bundles using the Presonus USB 96 audio interface with phantom power, which would enable the use of a condenser mic, which I'm led to believe might provide more sonic flexibility.

Here's an example. Looks pretty good, as it's all complete. I think. It's not a budget-buster, and I think could get me started. What do you think?
__________________
I own 41 guitars. Most are made of wood. Some are not.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-22-2021, 01:30 PM
KevWind's Avatar
KevWind KevWind is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Edge of Wilderness Wyoming
Posts: 19,884
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fpuhan View Post
Thank you, @KeyWind. I don't mind brutal honesty. In fact, I probably needed the slap in the face! To that end, I have been spending a lot of time reading and researching (don't tell my employer -- I'm supposed to be doing other work).

Your point about the Apogee ONE is well taken. Yes, I have a Mac (several, in fact). I just downloaded their latest installer and documentation, as what I have is about three years old. Since I already have it, I can probably connect it to Garageband or similar that I also have.

My focus has been primarily on the mic. I did come across some bundles using the Presonus USB 96 audio interface with phantom power, which would enable the use of a condenser mic, which I'm led to believe might provide more sonic flexibility.

Here's an example. Looks pretty good, as it's all complete. I think. It's not a budget-buster, and I think could get me started. What do you think?
That would not doubt get you started and Presonus are good value.
But If I am not mistaken the Apogee One has phantom power also ? And my guess Knowing Apogee's reputation is likely has better pre's and better conversion
__________________
Enjoy the Journey.... Kev...

KevWind at Soundcloud

KevWind at YouYube
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD

System :
Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1

Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Ventura 12.2.1
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-22-2021, 01:36 PM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 9,879
Default

If the goal is just to play open mics online, and not do serious recording, then I'd suggest keeping it simple. Lots of people use the Blue Yeti USB mic or Blue Raspberry. The Apogee mic should be fine too. Any of these will lift you a step up from the people who are just using their webcams or phones (which is also a reasonable option). The more complex the setup, the more time you spend on "can you hear me?"...

Last year when things first locked down I checked out some of these things, and quality was all over the map. My favorite was the guy who was sitting in his car with his phone on the dash... I did a series of online shows last year on facebook, with guests swapping tunes, and there I had everything from people in near-professional studios to one guy who used the mic in his apple ear buds, hanging from his ears. He actually sounded fine :-)

It's hard to get really great sound over the internet, and your gear is often not the limiting factor. Learning a bit about the software used can really help - there are settings for Zoom that make it much more palatable. One thing that tends to lift you above the rest is your visual setting. Lighting, what's behind you and so on. Also simple stuff that people forget - like making sure you and your guitar are actually in the picture!

You might find this article useful. I wrote it at the beginning of the pandemic when everyone was trying to figure it out, and it includes advice from people who had jumped in early, like Stevie Coyle and Al Petteway. A lot of this sort of assumes you're broadcasting your own show, but most of it applies to calling in to an open mic as well.

https://acousticguitar.com/a-guitari...ive-streaming/
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-22-2021, 02:36 PM
fpuhan fpuhan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Northern Virginia, USA
Posts: 1,319
Default

Thank you, @Doug Young. That article has a lot of very good tips!

I should note that I currently earn a living by doing Zoom instruction for my employer. In the past, I have used my MacBook Pro, iMovie and the built-in mic and camera for recording my guitar, but that was only for sharing with family, and usually did not include vocals. My instructional material is spoken word only, but I do have the bandwidth to support uploading video.

Under other circumstances, I'd probably just punt on pursuing this, but there has been no determined end time to the blackout, so I feel if I want to contribute, I should at least ramp it up a bit. I know about lighting and photo composition, as I'm also a photographer. I have a 1080p camera I can use instead of the 720p Mac built-in, and now I'm looking to step up my game a bit on the audio side.

I appreciate your comments, and will use your article for further reference.
__________________
I own 41 guitars. Most are made of wood. Some are not.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-22-2021, 02:58 PM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 9,879
Default

Sounds like you're more than on top of the visual and other aspects. I think if you just add a USB mic, you'll be in great shape. A lot of it is not really the quality of the mic, but just the ability to get closer than the camera, so things don't sound distant. The webcam mics are also sometimes optimized for things like noise cancellation, compression and limiting, and so on, which can wreak havoc on music.

There's a point of diminishing returns, and it largely depends on how much you want to put into it. I went a bit overboard last year as things drug on, and my current setup is 3 DSLR cameras with a video switcher. Stereo audio with Gefell mics into a UA Apollo interface with the ability to add effects, reverb and so on. Some of the people who took part in the AGF open mics got pretty fancy setups going with mixers and reverbs and so on, as well. The results can be nicer, but in the end, we're limited somewhat by the internet, so these higher end setups aren't always night and day, and they come with a cost of complexity, time and money. There are times I just grab my iPad and appreciate the "just works" aspect.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-22-2021, 04:58 PM
Gordon Currie Gordon Currie is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Kirkland, WA USA
Posts: 2,445
Default

When online performance became a thing, I dug out my old Blue Yeti.

I originally picked it up on a sale (Musicians Friend SDOTD) and quickly put it in the drawer as it did not work well for either recording or (traditional) live shows.

(Turns out that live streaming, just like recording and live performance, has it's own unique set of constraints.)

I found it was super easy to use (important when online) and has a few pickup patterns so you can find what works best. The sound is decent and we use it in a room that has nice reverb.

As it looks like live in-person performance will continue to be problematic and sparse, we will be moving to using our live sound system to provide our audio feed as we do more and more streaming.

Still, the Blue Yeti has been a good low-cost entry into online streaming, and without it I wouldn't be as clear on what I can do for improvement.
__________________
-Gordon

1978 Larrivee L-26 cutaway
1988 Larrivee L-28 cutaway
2006 Larrivee L03-R
2009 Larrivee LV03-R
2016 Irvin SJ cutaway
2020 Irvin SJ cutaway (build thread)
K+K, Dazzo, Schatten/ToneDexter


Notable Journey website
Facebook page

Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art. - Leonardo Da Vinci
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-27-2021, 01:35 PM
fpuhan fpuhan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Northern Virginia, USA
Posts: 1,319
Default

A follow up, because I'm not sure there's really "closure" to a topic like this, but here's a bit of a progress update: I did as @KeyWind suggested and pulled out my Apogee ONE. I have the Mac + iOS bundle, which means I have the full set of cables, power supply, etc.

As an initial test, I joined a Zoom meeting using my external camera and the ONE as the audio input. No guitar, but others on the Zoom reported no audio snafus.

I then used it with GarageBand and captured some guitar, but no vocals. Again, the results were pretty good for a first attempt. If I were looking to save audio, I'd probably want to clean up the file, but that's not really what I'm after.

ONE contains a "Y" cable with a 1/4" input on one end and an XLR input on another. It also provides 48V phantom power, so if I want to add a condenser mic, I can use that, and I can even plug my acoustic-electric (or plain electric) guitar into the other. Sweet!

So, as @KeyWind mentioned, perhaps the only thing I need consider (if I need consider anything at all) is a condenser mic. I know nothing about these, but I've seen Audio Technica (the AT4040 gets high marks) and I've seen some other large diaphragm (I think that's preferred) mics, some that come with shock mounts, cables, etc. I suspect I'll need a boom/stand as well.

I think I'm well on the way. Thanks, everyone!
__________________
I own 41 guitars. Most are made of wood. Some are not.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-27-2021, 11:52 PM
ljguitar's Avatar
ljguitar ljguitar is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: wyoming
Posts: 42,556
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fpuhan View Post
A follow up, because I'm not sure there's really "closure" to a topic like this, but here's a bit of a progress update: I did as @KeyWind suggested and pulled out my Apogee ONE. I have the Mac + iOS bundle, which means I have the full set of cables, power supply, etc.

As an initial test, I joined a Zoom meeting using my external camera and the ONE as the audio input. No guitar, but others on the Zoom reported no audio snafus.

I then used it with GarageBand and captured some guitar, but no vocals. Again, the results were pretty good for a first attempt. If I were looking to save audio, I'd probably want to clean up the file, but that's not really what I'm after.

ONE contains a "Y" cable with a 1/4" input on one end and an XLR input on another. It also provides 48V phantom power, so if I want to add a condenser mic, I can use that, and I can even plug my acoustic-electric (or plain electric) guitar into the other. Sweet!

So, as @KeyWind mentioned, perhaps the only thing I need consider (if I need consider anything at all) is a condenser mic. I know nothing about these, but I've seen Audio Technica (the AT4040 gets high marks) and I've seen some other large diaphragm (I think that's preferred) mics, some that come with shock mounts, cables, etc. I suspect I'll need a boom/stand as well.

I think I'm well on the way. Thanks, everyone!
Hi fp-etc

I was zooming multiple times a week through 2020 and cut back in 2021. I had been using an interface, and either my AKG 414 or my Shure KSM-44. That was a lot more work than I wanted to travel with so I bought a Mackie EleMent Series, USB Condenser Microphone (EM-USB) for $80.

It's an amazingly good mic, and people were joining the Zoom meets on laptops with ear-buds or computer speakers.

The Mackie is a decent sized capsule (I think .55"), and picks up voice and guitar just fine when I sit in front of either my MacBook Pro or my iMac. And it plugs into a standard USB port.

This was a far better mic than other participants for the crowd I am hanging with use. It matches the gig for quality, and sets-up/tears-down in seconds. No boom, just a small table top stand.

I've wound-down that part of my life and gave it to my kids with grandkids as their streaming mic, and they just crank it up on their MacMini and it works great for family Zooms.

Frankly it surprised me how good it worked. And I made sure I had a better than average camera and decent lighting.

Not putting down interfaces, nor AT 4040 mics (they are great). I have a MOTU-M2 interface, and using my studio mics the combo sounded great. But like I shared, all the people on the other were listening to their laptops without outboard speakers, or using AirPods and ear buds (not even good ones).

You cannot go wrong using better gear if you plan to do some recording after this live gig winds down.



__________________

Baby #1.1
Baby #1.2
Baby #02
Baby #03
Baby #04
Baby #05

Larry's songs...

…Just because you've argued someone into silence doesn't mean you have convinced them…

Last edited by ljguitar; 12-27-2021 at 11:59 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-01-2022, 04:45 AM
fpuhan fpuhan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Northern Virginia, USA
Posts: 1,319
Default

A final (?) note: I purchased a "bundle" from a company on Reverb that contained an Audio Technica AT202, shock mount, table mount, cable and headphones. All which can be plugged into my Apogee ONE.

I'm approaching retirement (some days I think I'm already retired) and maybe one of my indoor pastimes (for the rainy days) will be recording and editing stuff. I do much the same with my photography, so why not?
__________________
I own 41 guitars. Most are made of wood. Some are not.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=