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  #16  
Old 12-29-2020, 10:14 PM
Gordon Currie Gordon Currie is offline
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The half-step modulation seemed to be most popular in the Tin Pan Alley heyday. It's not at all common in classical music, so I think it is a more modern thing.

I've always seen it as a 'lazy' way to inject a change. While I love key changes, I have so far avoided ever writing a half-step modulation. To my ears, most of the time it sounds awkward.

Jazz that is based on standards will have a lot of these. I've always found that using partial chords and barres works best, and those are the kinds of chord forms that work well in jazz anyway.
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  #17  
Old 12-29-2020, 10:32 PM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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Since the title of the the thread is "mid-song key changes," not just modulations, I can think of two songs where the choruses and the verses are in different keys: "Good Day Sunshine" by the Beatles and "Your Precious Love" by Marvin Gaye and Tammy Terrell. Anything else belong on that list?

And there are probably lots where there's a key change for the bridge. "Here there and Everywhere" and "Dream a Little Dream of Me" are two that come to mind. With the latter, I've heard versions where, relative to the verse, the bridge drops a minor third and others where it drops a major third. They both sound fine if the arrangement elegantly works its way back to the verse.
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  #18  
Old 12-29-2020, 11:28 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is online now
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Check what David Wilcox does at about the 1:52 mark.

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  #19  
Old 12-29-2020, 11:36 PM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
Check what David Wilcox does...
Wow. I don't think my right arm's long enough to do that.
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  #20  
Old 12-29-2020, 11:51 PM
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James Taylor has been doing the "Capo-Slide" on his song "Your Smiling Face" since 1977.
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  #21  
Old 12-30-2020, 01:06 AM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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Originally Posted by endpin View Post
James Taylor has been doing the "Capo-Slide" on his song "Your Smiling Face" since 1977.
He's got a whole band behind him, so he can lay out for a bar or two. Still cool, though.
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  #22  
Old 12-30-2020, 03:33 AM
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Otherwise known as a 'Manilow'
Yep. Ol' Barry was King of the Truck Drivers. Not the first to do it, but got up there in the head of the convoy...
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  #23  
Old 12-30-2020, 03:36 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Originally Posted by morningside View Post
You don't need to be a musician to know that. Just know the alphabet.
Sure. But some guitarists (present company excepted of course ) still think of the fretboard direction towards the bridge as "down", and towards the nut as "up". Proper musicians (like us) think in pitch, not in physical direction or position.
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  #24  
Old 01-03-2021, 09:14 AM
nightchef nightchef is offline
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You can’t avoid barre chords altogether with a half-step modulation, but you can minimize them by placing a capo so as to put each half of the song in a key where you’ll be playing a mix of barre and open chords — for instance, say the song starts in D and modulates up to Eb, place the capo on the third fret so it starts in B and modulates up to C. (The best exact approach will depend on the harmonic content of the song, of course—the strategy I just mentioned won’t be much help if the song never goes to the IV chord!)

Brent, about songs with verse and chorus in different keys — my favorite example is “Pleasant Valley Sunday”, which has a verse in A, and then shifts to C for the chorus — and then halfway through the chorus modulates a second time to E, to set up a V-I resolution back to the verse. Just to put the cherry on the sundae, the last time through the chorus, the shift is from C to F. That King kid had some tricks up her sleeve.

And then of course, there’s the ultimate multi-modulation song, “Good Vibrations”.
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  #25  
Old 01-03-2021, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
He's got a whole band behind him, so he can lay out for a bar or two. Still cool, though.
Hi Brent
I've seen both James Taylor and David Wilcox move a capo mid song for modulating when playing solo (no band to cover for them).

The response in the room when David Wilcox did this was an audible 'ooo' on the part of the audience (and a smattering of applause). I attended one of his workshops and it came up as a question (how do to do this smoothly).





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  #26  
Old 01-05-2021, 01:34 PM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightchef View Post
Brent, about songs with verse and chorus in different keys — my favorite example is “Pleasant Valley Sunday”...
Yep, that's a good 'un.
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  #27  
Old 01-09-2021, 10:22 PM
Songbook19 Songbook19 is offline
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I just use a “glider capo.” Didn’t know they even existed until a couple of years ago. Just reach up with the thumb of your fretting hand and roll it forward or back. And while they don’t work as well coming off the nut (going from uncapo’d to capo at the first fret) anywhere else they work okay. Not great but okay, especially if there’s only one change to deal with.
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  #28  
Old 01-14-2021, 04:33 PM
Fatfinger McGee Fatfinger McGee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljguitar View Post
Hi Brent
I've seen both James Taylor and David Wilcox move a capo mid song for modulating when playing solo (no band to cover for them).

The response in the room when David Wilcox did this was an audible 'ooo' on the part of the audience (and a smattering of applause). I attended one of his workshops and it came up as a question (how do to do this smoothly).
I was in the audience when David Wilcox did it and was one of the audible 'ooo's. He uses all kinds of capo tricks to get his tunings, iirc. On a related 'audience impressing' note, with all the focus on his fine songwriting and guitar skills, he doesn't get enough credit for his soulful, funny, highly entertaining patter. I'd pay just to hear him talk between songs.

Somewhere on youtube is a Tommy Emmanuel workshop video showing him throwing his capo. And he basically says, yeah it's 100% an entertaining gimmick, I'm an entertainer.

As far as key changes go, there's a long list of songs that wouldn't be the same without them. Kermit the Frog (Rainbow Connection) and Bon Jovi (you know the one) approve this message. Personally I use a combination of barre chords and partial chord shapes vs moving a capo, but maybe I'll rethink, could be fun.
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  #29  
Old 01-14-2021, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatfinger McGee View Post
…On a related 'audience impressing' note, with all the focus on his fine songwriting and guitar skills, he doesn't get enough credit for his soulful, funny, highly entertaining patter. I'd pay just to hear him talk between songs.
Hi Ff
He's often funnier live because when he's being recorded he sef-censors a bit more.

I've never heard him become obnoxious, or insulting…but he can really be funny during a 2½ hour seminar.



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  #30  
Old 01-16-2021, 04:23 PM
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Very interesting topic indeed as a fingerstylist !

I am working on a piece that brings in an unsual, kind of ackward,
fingering to keep the feeling of the main melody while changing key !

I also once was faced with a female singer that asked for a key change
to match her voicing range : that was easy : I capoed so that the fingering
of both hands remained !

But what happens with a singer getting to a lower range as he ages ?
I was absolutely blowned away by how Leonard Cohen voice got
bassier as he aged !

It makes me remember of a lesson where Fred Sokolow explains how
some pieces are built on the circle of fifth : Follow the melody, guys !!!

So I am amazed about the tricks you found as used by other players
on live play : It makes me find myself a better player I used to think I am !!!
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